Something is puzzling me a wee bit .

As you know , the Rafale proved many times that it is an outstanding dogfighter (Dassault ‘s trademark) and before the meeting with the F-22 , no one ever won against it in dogfight , bare Harriers but that was long ago .

The F-22 is the only fighter who won against the Rafale during cannon “dances” but the French Rafale pilots say that Thrust vectoring is squarely overestimated and did not bring anything into the fight .
Well … :confused:
I don ‘t get it yet … While the F-22 won the exercise (not by much), why the Rafale pilots are saying that TVC is overrated ?
I mean , if it was coming from North-Korean or Chinese pilots , we could understand 😀 , but coming from people who train on a regular basis with the USAF and USN , it is something to think about … I mean , they wouldn ‘t lie or spread false rumors when the Raptor is not even for sale . They are pilots who flew against the F-22 .

Not many people on Air-defense tilted on this , so I ask here .

Cheers .

alfakilo , then Wrightwing :

Given your definition, why the F-22 lesser capability?
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You do realize that the Raptor pilot will very likely have the advantage of initiating any dog fight though, as he probably won’t merge from the opponent’s most advantageous angle

AK , the F-22 ‘s short range IR missiles are stored inside the bays and even with the doors open , the seekers are blind so any Lock On Before Launch (LOBL) is impossible . It means that the F-22 has to go “active” (APG-77) to fire its sidewinders .
So , jamming is possible , just “possible” .
Then , knowing the sidewinders range , it is easy to say that the F-22 could light up its radar late for stealthy and safety reasons .
At this time , the F-22 already has 2 IR Micas incoming or is already shot , because the IR Micas can lock onto the F-22 waaaay earlier , on their own and without any “active” input .
To back up what I say , I ‘ve got some Thalès videos , official papers and pilot reports . I don ‘t make things up 🙂

Wrightwing , yes I realize that it could be the case . But as I said , the F-22 has to go “live” and from then on , it is up to SPECTRA to do a good job and up to the Rafale pilot to overcome the threat .

Cheers .

Jessmo :

1. So your saying that the APG-77 cannot uprate as an AESA jammer?

No I don ‘t . I ‘ve never said so .
I only repeat what official papers are saying . I can “personally” add that the APG-77 will never be a true or even good Aesa jammer because the technology behind it is too old and all the modules and amps would have to be changed (MMICs and so on) .

2. How does the fact that the UAE wants the Rafale upgrade before the road map change a thing? If the UAE wanted the planes flown in next week for evaluation would they be avialable in the exact spec the UAE wants?

No , the radar is not up to the UAE specs (yet) .

3. You just contradicted your self! your saying in 1 breath that the upgrades to UAe standards are ready and in another breath your still trumpeting the F3. AS is, the radar is still inferior to a Block 60 F-16.

First , you don ‘t have any Blk 60 in your inventory . The UAE have .
Secondly , you don ‘t judge the overall capability of a fighter by looking at its radar only .

Do I need to get into the lack of targeting pods over the stan?

This time is gone , the Rafale F3s “en route” for A-Stan HAVE the Damoclès pod .

Do we need to discuss Rafeles using binoculars

(mind your spelling , thanks) .
It is not unusual for back seaters or even front seaters to use binoculars in day time and night vision binoculars at night , at the contrary .
From the Cpt Romain :

At night and in clear weather , fighter pilots use night vision goggles to fly. These binoculars significantly improved perception of our environment at night. However, they require regular training to master their use because of some very dangerous aspects in a fighter.

Jessmo , nowadays bringing the crew back alive is one of the most important aspect . In this regard , the Rafale has a very high survivability , better than any teen fighter .

As it is , the aircraft can do pretty much everything you can ask to a multirole fighter , a2a (Micas) , a2g ( SCALP , AASM , LGB , ASMP , various bombs) , a2sea (Exocet , AASM , ASMP (!)) . It did CAS for many years now over A-Stan and it can also do rather well in SEAD if asked (Red Flag , Tiger meet , ATLC , etc …) .

Its sensor fusion is true 5th generation and the pit is showing it rather clearly :

Beside the Rafale , this kind of MMI can only be seen in the not operational yet F-35 .
You want to see “old gen” cockpits ?

Super Hornet :

Gripen :

Typhoon :

F-22 :

Cheers .

Btw , I checked and cross checked various data available in the public domain regarding radar range vs. fighter size target .

It is tracking range , not detection range :

French radars like the RDI (M2000-5) , RDY (M2000-9) and PESA RBE2 are rated at around 100-110km , which is similar to the F-16C Block 50/52 (AN/APG-68(V)9/10) radar .
The APG-80 (Block-60) is rated at 130-140km .

So , from the Emirati ‘s talk , we can guess that the AESA RBE2 can be rated at 120-130km (10% less) .

Cheers .

@ Scorpion82 :

« I think that our RBE2 electronic scanning radar is very good, indicates Lieutenant Le Bars. Against a F-15 or a F-16, two aircraft types that have enormous radar cross-sections because of their massive airintakes, our detection ranges are excellent. In a BVR scenario, we always try to engage at high level and fire our lethal Mica missiles at high altitude to give them the longest possible range.

Cheers .

Wrightwing :

A Rafale sustained >60 deg?

Sorry , my bad . Rafale reached100 deg AoA during testing .

I realize the F-22’s top speed isn’t that relevant, but it does have a sizeable supercruise advantage, speedwise .

True , its kinematics are excellent .
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Now , it ‘s nice and fun to try to guess what could happen if Rafales and F-22s had a go at each other , but it we add AWACs to the equation , the situation become even harsher for the Rafales . The F-22s could simply use their speed and altitude advantage , stay silent and shoot using the coordinates given by the AWAcs .
Again , it ‘s the F-22s who shoot first . A flight of 4 Raptors + AWAC working together is something very hard to beat , even for Rafales + AWAC .
The only real advantage the Rafale has is its long range IR Micas , because firing EM Micas BVR at a Raptor is possible but will the seekers get a lock in the end game ?

The ALQ-94 is a brilliant piece of kit and could jam the EM Micas but it can ‘t do much against IR Micas .
As much as I like the Rafale , the F-22 is still the King in BVR combat .
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Blue Apple , I don ‘t make things up , I never do . It is true that the F-22s ran out of fuel few times during the cannon exercise against the Rafales .
Jessmo has posted good and even Cpt Romain on his blog is reporting the fact .

Jessmo :

the F-22 doesn’t even need stealth to beat either the Euro fighter or the Rafale. It can win decisively simply by using its energy advantage.

It ‘s not as simple as that Jess . If the F-22 is at less than 50km , it takes the risk to eat IR missiles or worse , being forced to go dogfight where its weapon bays and fuel consumption are great disadvantages .

The Raptor beats the Rafale with near any weapons of your choosing. Guns Ir missiles BVR you name it.

I beg to disagree . In a real dogfight , I don ‘t give much chance to the Raptor :diablo:

The Rafale just does not have the radar nor the energy advantage to beat the F-22

May I remind you that a M2000-9 (who doesn ‘t have the radar or energy advantage) scored on cannon against the F-22 ?
The actual Pesa RBE2 is regarded as one of the best if not the best radar in Europe but yes , it comes short against the APG-77 . The Aesa RBE2 will close the gap a little bit .

Cheers .

Can the Typhoon sustain 28 deg/s, and >60 deg AoA?
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…and F22 can??

Useless talk . For safety reasons , all operationals Fly by wire are limited .
As an example , the Rafale did better than that during testing but is now limited like any other fighter .

Top speed Typhoon M2 F-22 M2.4+
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Some more, LOLs…care to back that up with something solid, or more “anecdotal” evidence?

Top speed (dash speed clean in fact) is more and more irrelevant these days . Then , I also heard about the F-22 being capable in theory to reach Mach 2.4 but it would land without any coating left . It “might” save a pilot ‘s life if true … :rolleyes:

Cheers .