BluewingsJessmo :
1. The Rafales radar isn’t even as good as a Block 60 F-16s let alone a raptors its isn’t a full AESA and the raf will need power upgrades in order to receive so standard block 60 capabilities.
Some of what you say is true but you exaggerate a bit . Every single new radar put in operation don ‘t have its full potential first , but after many upgrades it gets better . It happen all of the time , everywhere , Russia , France , USA , Sweden , UK , etc …
The first operational Rafale F1 (late 90s) couldn ‘t do Air-Sea search for example and was limited to a2a . The actual Pesa is doing everything a Pesa radar can do . The Aesa RBE2 will follow the same path , it will also gets better with time .
2. I read where the french said the F-22s used used there radar beacons for WVR ( luneberg lens). THIS makes sense, its the only way they can get to the merge with the Raptor and make it a fair contest.
Jessmo , imagine for a second that you ‘re a French pilot on Rafale flying against F-22s .
-1) Would you light up your Pesa RBE2 ?
No , it would give too much away and you wouldn ‘t be sure to detect the F-22s .
-2) Instead , would you use the IRST , Spectra , Mica ‘s IR seekers and the TV to try to detect the F-22s passively ?
Yes , because you stay “silent” and you have a better chance to detect the F-22s . It is far safer knowing how deadly the F-22s can be .
If the F-22s also stay “silent” (and blind) , it is fair to say that the Rafales will get the first look anytime soon .
If the F-22s use their radars , they might get detected first , or not .
Using some clever Fox Three tactics , the F-22s could even fire BVR from far away , turn , go supercruise and leave the Rafales with incoming AMRAAMs used as semi-active missiles . No very efficient knowing the ECM capabilities of the Rafale against missile ‘s RF seekers .
You see Jessmo , the problem is to put a radar guided missile onto a target . It goes for everybody . ECMs are so performant these days … Even Home on Jam systems can be fooled by feeding them with wrong coordinates , an excellent Aesa jamming suite like Spectra most probably does it .
3. The reason that the kill ratio wasn’t higher was because of fuel consumption.
I suppose super cruise and TV burns alot of gas
What burns a lot of fuel is AB . The F-22s had to use it extensively to cope with the Rafales and to score twice .
From what we know , the US F-22 pilots never expected the Rafale to be such an amazing dogfighter and they had to push the F-22 very hard to outfight the latest Dassault fighter , using cannon only . In doing so , they ran out of fuel few times , the Rafales didn ‘t .
you lost me here.
I just wanted to point the fact that a good RWR can detect a LPI radar .
Wrightwing :
PESA radars won’t have as good of LPI capabilities as AESA ones due the latters far greater beam/frequency agility.
This is only half true , but it holds water . It is not wrong .
One should not make any confusion in between Aesa and LPI . Two different things .
Aesa radars help the LPI factor , this is true but the Aesa technology is NOT behind the LPI capability .
Some “mechanical” radars like the Captor or RDY-2 are very capable LPI radars .
What Aesa add to LPI is the capability to spread the LPI signals in real time through multi bands .
But the signals can still be detected , of course as they stay … signals . They are just more difficult to “understand” .
If I may say , a “mechanical” LPI radar is a 300 pieces puzzle , a Pesa LPI radar is a 600 pieces puzzle and an Aesa LPI radar is a 1000 pieces puzzle .
Now , it is up to the RWR to be good at puzzle 😉
Cheers .
BluewingsJessmo , regarding the article From Paris Air & Cosmos on 29/01/2010 , do you know what Cpt Romain said ?
When making a transit to my training area and when I returned on board my Rafale, I often use this time to practice my shooting for dummy missile on other military aircraft, also in transit. Among the possibilities of the Rafale weapon system, there is one that involves firing a missile at a plane that light-up his radar while mine is silent … There was no confrontation Beyond Visual Range between Rafale and F22. However, it is clear that the Raptor pilots as pilots of Rafale, will be trained to make such shots during the phases of transit for TRTA.
Did the French Pilots had a “lock” on the F-22s ? No-one knows . What we know is that the ALQ-94 can pinpoint the PESA RBE2 , which shows that a good RWR can pinpoint a LPI radar , CQFD 😎
Cheers .
BluewingsMSphere :
Capability to fully passively engage a target that is not emitting.
I read and note “fully passively” . This is untrue .
An IRST doesn ‘t provide any firing solution .
To do so , you need or a very , very efficient RWR or a direct IR lock .
Any other solution is active (even the LRF) .
Cheers .
BluewingsHarrier ‘s Blue Vixen was also said to be very capable 😎
But what was missing is the 5th gen “syndrome” , if I may say . The capability to be discret , to listen all around , to share data in real time and to act with some impunity .
On a personal note , more I know about the T-50 , more I see Russia closing the small gap with the West . I am no-one but I tell you that the first operational T-50 (?) will be something to be accounted for . It ‘s designed to be a true 5th gen aircraft within a 5th gen organisation .
Cheers .
Bluewingsdjcross , I agree with you (post #31) but :
Extremely high altitude and super cruise allow F-22 to safely operate in that high threat environment where a gen 4 airplane would be mission killed while dodging SAMs (if the gen 4 airplane is not outright K-killed by the SAM).
You know that the target (the aircraft) , if well equipped , will get the electronic warning (RWR) long before any possible tracking . There , a F-22 or a Rafale play in the same court . At this time , passive stealth is not into the equation yet , right ? Yes .
From there on , tactics will differ 😉 That ‘s all .
Then , flying high doesn ‘t mean “safety” . Far from it in fact because if something is detected , it can only be YOU .
F-22s and B2s have been tracked by radars (mostly L Band radars) long ago .
Other people still think that fast low level penetration is a better bet against the latest over-powerful Russian radars designed to counter the fast and high flying VLO aircraft .
But this is another story again …
Cheers .
Bluewingsppp :
This AWACS idea seems to be a common claim, it was made about the F14 too, but then again at least the F14 had a WSO. Either way, both have a radar that is forward facing only, so are in no way an AWACS.
True but don ‘t underestimate the amount of data a fighter like a F-22 or a Rafale , (F-35 (?)) can get from their passive 360deg electronic “suckers” .
While I know the F-22 rather well , I prefer to use the Rafale as an example (obviously :p) . Spectra can inform the pilot of any detected EM emission 360 degree all around at up to 200km . It can ‘t detect everything , it can ‘t classify everything but it is a very efficient electronic “ear” . The F-22 does it too , the Typhoon is also good at it , the Gripen NG is still an unknown quantity .
Now , as I said to Jessmo , the pilot can keep the data for himself (the mission needs) or share it with the risk to emit in hostile grounds .
One have to look at the way the Rafale used Spectra + AASM to silently destroy 6 targets (SAMs) in one pass when other aircrafts would not have noticed anything , with the risk to be shot at .
The capability to “read” and “listen” from far away in different ways , electronic , IR light , normal light , etc , is a way to archive multiple goals :
– survival
– efficiency
– Intel gathering
Then , it is up to the mission planners to decide on how to use the technology at hand .
Cheers .
BluewingsFew more things :
Jessmo :
Explain to me what advantage Irst would give the F-22 that the advanced AESA and its advanced passive sensors would not?
Just another (one MORE) passive sensor 😉
It also helps against incoming missiles …
A long range TV to visually ID the foe (a la Rafale) would also be nice 😉
Cheers .
BluewingsHi Jess :
The F-22 can operate as a mini AWAcs that what the entire article above was about. you use your ordnance and then extend networked sensors into areas that the are too dangerous for AWACS.
Indeed and this is what some other fighters are also doing , the F-22 is not one of a kind in this regard . Rafale and Gripen being the close followers .
The problem Jessmo is still the following : you need to transmit ! Sure , we now have very secure up-links but they still can be detected as such , which goes against the safety of the aircraft and its crew . 5th gen aircraft are not made to act as AWACs , even if they can do a little good job at it , but are made to stay as stealthy and silent as they can . Again , the “EMCON” idea 😉
Cheers .
BluewingsRegarding the F-22 , which I rate very high , it still have some average or less than average points like being short legged and under-armed when showing its best aspect .
It also lacks some useful long range passive tracking devices . Nothing is perfect .
Its max A2A load when stealthy is 4 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders (or 6 AMRAAMs ?) . Some other fighters can have up to 12 .
Its range and capacity to stay in the air with internal fuel only , in combat conditions, has been demonstrated during the late Al Dhafra meeting against the Rafale :
it is poor .
The F-22 ran out of fuel multiple times and the officials called it a draw , following the RoE . The Rafale never ran out of fuel .
Read what Lt Col Grandclaudon Cpt Romain says .
Romain even added :
“Cet énorme avion qui est conçu pour ne pas avoir à engager un combat tournoyant a su démontrer de belles capacités de manoeuvres à basse vitesse au prix d’une consommation pétrole très importante…”
“This huge airplane that is designed not to have to engage in a dogfight has demonstrated great capabilities of maneuvering at low speed at the cost of a very high fuel consumption…”
This is from a pilot who flew against the F-22 .
It is clear that the F-22 is build to fight BVR at moderate to high low mach from high altitude when “clean” . It is also clear that the supercruise can only be used for a short time and dogfights must be avoided at all cost .
To put it bluntly , a F-22 chased and forced to go dogfight by a basic (?) Su-27 Flanker , a Rafale or a Typhoon will more likely loose the fight . Remember that the F-22 has no HMS and it will have to fight bays open to have the chance to fire against a 11g manoeuvring target , it also can ‘t use LOBL from the sidewinders when the Archers , Micas and Asraams will get a perfect lock very early (very , very early with the Mica) .
It is one of the reasons why the USAF declined to fight the Rafale in Fox-two and on cannon only instead . They also declined the BVR fight , but that ‘s another story :rolleyes:
Cheers .
BluewingsUCAVs do represent a true shift.
True , I agree .
Cheers .
BluewingsIt took less than 20 posts for some to be back to the usual pis.ing contest … :rolleyes:
Yes the F-22 is the best A2A aircraft for now .
That being said , it still needs external eyes to be at its best .
A 5th gen aircraft supported by a 3rd gen Intel will be used without great efficiency or in a very risky way .
The F-22 fits very well the USA because they have the biggest”eye” , so the fighter can be used at its best and score . This is what 5th generation is about , it is a mix of “stealth” , Intels and data sharing .
As an example , give 12 F-22s to Iran and let them fight the Coalition (?) . They will get shot in no time 😎
No need to argue , within a proper organisation , any late fighter (4.5 or 5th gen) will do well .
Cheers .
Bluewingseven though some will disagree with me some web sites are claiming that 5th generation tactics will offer a paradigm shift in the way we fight.
Personally , I don ‘t think so .
From the first caveman who was the sentinel at night to warn the tribe against the predators to the latest AWAC scanning the skies , who has the biggest eye gets the better situational awareness .
The goal has always been to know more than the other . The 5th generation doesn ‘t bring anything really new in the way wars will be conducted . It is the eternal fight between the sword and the shield : now , stealth versus radars .
5th generation aircraft need “external” eyes to exploit fully their advantages . It is one of the reason why the people behind the F-22 developed the concept of “EMCON” .
A revolutionary concept where the aircraft can decide by itself (if asked) to reduce its own emissions and rely on passive sensors only if enemy “eyes” are detected .
Concept who is now used in some other recent fighters .
The goal is clear : getting the data silently or from external sources , then act in total surprise and score .
A concept at least 10.000 years old …
Technology doesn ‘t change the way we fight , not really .
The human factor is the deciding factor .
Another factor , more recent , is our new view on the price of the human life : we hate casualties . The time of the first World War when 8000 dead per day was acceptable is over .
5th generation aircraft are made with three main purposes in mind : score in surprise , protect the crew and the cost of the aircraft , which is totally new . It wasn ‘t the case in WW2 or even in Nam .
The GW1 was an eye opener …
Aircraft like the F-22 , F-35 , T-50 and to a lesser extent Rafale and Typhoon are designed primarily for survivability in harsh conditions while being capable to fulfil the mission and bring their crew back home .
But (as I said) they still need “external” eyes to be at their best . AWACs will not vanish , they will get better and better and ground radars will follow the same path .
Cheers .
BluewingsJonesy :
Storing the carrier for deployment with all the spares, tools and consumables necessary for operating the F-35’s along with Rafale will be a pain, especially on the smaller CdeG
Gentlemen , this is NOT the idea.
The CdG will never operate both Rafales and F-35Cs at the same time .
The idea is to use the French and British carriers to carry Rafales and E-2s until the US fighter-striker is ready AND operational (2016 ?) . Then , things will go back to “normal” with each navies operating their birds .
By 2014 , the MN will have more than enough Rafale M F3s to operate easily 2 wings which is the reason why the UK agreed to such a deal .
Our British friends don ‘t have any other alternative anyway since the Harriers will disappear before the arrival of the F-35s .
When at sea , the British Carrier will operate French Rafales driven and maintained by French personal under British orders . Of course , while France and the UK are part of Nato , France could not agree to use the Rafales onboard the British carrier to re-take the Falklands (example) , unless … (fill in the blanks) .
A Nation like the UK cannot afford to stay without any Navy wing for very long , that ‘s the point . The Harrier was fine 20 years ago but not anymore , then it cost a leg to maintain and an eye to operate .
We both operate along each other at sea for long enough to perfectly understand each other . The past 8 or 10 years , the CdG battle group had very often a British frigate (or else) being part of the escort and we work very well together .
When you think about it , it is the most clever path to create a “joint” Navy at low cost and share our respective knowledge even further .
If the interoperability issue is a serious one, serious as the govt. is trying to portray it, Rafale has to be seriously on the agenda
Not at all , at the contrary . The Rafale will be a breeze to operate on the British carrier as it is onboard the CdG . The logistic lines exist already (and since a long time) and I cannot see any show stopper .
I suspect that it isnt though and the ‘joint’ French/British airwing concept is an ill-considered attempt at applying soundbyte politics to military planning. i.e it doesnt matter if it provides an inefficient capability in operation it looks good on paper so thats enough for now!.
You grossly underestimate your and our personal , this is all I have to say .
In fact , I see it the other way around :
By threatening the French or the British battle group , you threaten BOTH Nations 😡
Think about it … Political leverage , etc …
I see it at the next step toward a real European Navy , don ‘t you ?
Cheers .
BluewingsI believe that the most interesting part is this :
The opening granted to Boeing may be an attempt by the Emiratis to extract more from the French side than Paris previously was willing to grant.
because :
French Defense Minister Herve Morin has stated that further developments of the Rafale – which would include a longer-range active electronically scanned radar (AESA), a more powerful engine, and a more capable Spectra electronic warfare suite – would cost the UAE about EUR2 billion ($2.6 billion), though France would be willing to bear some of the cost.
The UAE are trying to bring the cost down , it is pretty obvious …:cool:
The political ties with France are strong , maybe stronger than ever , but they (the UAE) want to get the best possible deal and I would do the same if I was them .
On the other hand , getting closer with the USA in case of push comes to shove with Iran is probably not a bad idea …
Cheers .
BluewingsI also like Cpt. Cedric Ruet . He ‘s a great pilot but he also seems like a good guy .
Everytime I see him on video or on the TV , I appreciate the man .
Then , he is a real pro 😎
http://ma-tvideo.france2.fr/video/iLyROoafMUed.html#iLyROoafYYHU
http://www.kewego.co.uk/video/iLyROoafMUp6.html
and of course :):cool:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9n6fh_demonstration-du-rafale-dassault-av_tech
Cheers .
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