Hi nocutstoRAF (good handle;))
how you would go about countering an attack by stealthed strike fighters.
First , I think it is a very hard task .
One need a top notch C4s and a total airspace coverage (over the entire country) with multiple layers of different radar bands .
A good start is to have an Over The Horizon radar for early warning . It gives you more time to set something up .
OTHR arrays are very useful and while they are fixed “targets” , they are not easy to take out because they are usually very big , few square km , and taking out few “nodules” will only degrade the radar .
Low frequency radars , UHF and VHF radars and some others like TV and Cellphone passive radar receivers would be used to cover the EM “holes” where the stealth aircraft are hiding .
Thjs “radar-Net” would have to be closely linked with the usual radar coverage/SAM . It would also be good if it is highly mobile to try to counter the enemy satellite spying capabilities ~which are more often that not invaluable tools prior to a strike mission .
A good and very mobile system is the HA-100 :

It is a totally passive system using cellphone band , it can detect and track anything including stealth object at up to 100km . A 3 men team can set it up in an half-hour .
When one is quite confident that only a “Kligon” ship could pass undetected (a B2 as an example is not a “Kligon” ship) , you can start to put things in the air equipped with top notch ECMs , Optronics and IR sensors/missiles .
Equipped the fighter “light” . Your aim is to go fast not far away with a discrete RCS and to kill quickly the stealth striker fighter .
Use your SAMs before your fighters .
All of this is easy to say but hard to do .
(just my 2 euros)
Cheers .
Erkokite :
or maybe even SPECTRA in a training or degraded mode
As far as I know , the active capabilities of Spectra have never been used outside of French territory . Some capabilities have been demonstrated during the South-Korean and Singaporian evaluations but under tight restrictions and against foreign aircraft flown by Korean and Sing pilots .
Cheers .
Erkokite :
The Rafale likely was emitting via its RBE-2 when the Raptor achieved the unofficial “lock”.
Exactly . (it also proves that the AN-ALR94 can “listen” to a LPI radar not used in War mode )
Cheers .
Mod Edit: Do NOT insult other members in here.
Jessmo :
The entire exercise was based on virtual data and virtual missiles ?
Of course ! Like in every DACT or join exercises .
Do you think that we ‘re firing real missiles at each other ??? 😮
Cheers .
Very nice 🙂
To me , the overall design is sound .
Cheers .
Jessmo , you are still talking about detection and firing a missile .
Good to you but the problem lies elsewhere , as I said in my last post .
Will the missile hit is the real question .
Cheers .
jackjack :
BW, it just gets better, the magic mica wins again
best plane with the best missile, i bet people are lining up to buy it
No , no , no , this is NOT what I am saying !
To kill a fighter BVR , a missile hit is needed .
Sure , the F-22/APG-77 combo will detect a Rafale way before the Rafale/RBE2 combo can detect a F-22 : that I don ‘t deny .
It gives the F-22 a big advantage as its driver can choose what action could and should be undertaken : that I don ‘t deny either .
It is why I always said that the F-22 was the best AtoA platform out there .
But what happens if the Rafale ‘s RWR gets the bleeps from the US Aesa LPI radar ? The whole situation becomes a totally new situation .
If it doesn ‘ t , the Amraam still has to go live just before the end game and there , I trust Spectra to do its job .
You see , there is a big difference in detecting and tracking a fighter and actually killing it .
This has always been my point and nothing else .
Passive stealth gives one the advantage of surprise by flying undetected for longer and the capability to close in safer . But that ‘s it ! .
Turn the situation around (Rafale having the first look because of better situation in the sky or by luck) , the problem is still the same .
The F-22 ‘ s RWR is top notch and will probably warn the F-22 driver .
If it doesn ‘t , the Mica EM still has to go live to get a kill .
Of course , the ALR-94 can ‘t jam the Mica but the missile still have to lock the VLO target and if the RAM coating is also top notch , it ‘s not gonna be easy , it could even be near to impossible at more than 5 km .
Now , if it is an IR Mica … 😎
Just to say that today ‘s electronics are hard to defeat even for a well equipped fighter .
No pi**ing contest needed .
Cheers .
pfcem :
After all, in a real fight a F-22 would defeat Rafale BEFORE the Rafale could even get a MICA shot vs the F-22.
glitter :
Did somebody ever denied that ?
Yes , I did and I still do .
Cheers .
Mica is more agile than Amraam , especially in the end-game .
Cheers .
jackjack , there is one thing you just don ‘t grab :
Very few EM radiations can reach the compressor blades because of the interior design (S-shapes , RAM) and even less can bounce back , EM radiations are trapped inside .
Think about it and read a bit more on how radar waves work , thank you . 😎
Cheers .
My God , that SH show is crap !:o
It demonstrates perfectly that the fighter is underpowered , it can ‘t turn , it ‘s slow , it ‘s heavy and it can ‘t accelerate …
Wrightwing , next time give us a Demo from a F-16 or a Mig-29 . At least , we ‘ll have something to enjoy 😀
Watching to video to the end was painful 😮
The SH is everything but a dogfighter .
Cheers .
Slowly , step by step , the Rafale becomes the best fighter out there . 😎
Cheers .
Kiwinopal :
To catch a F-22 on IRST is very hard, it has reduced IR signature it uses technology used on the space shuttle to make the nozzles cold with the same technology applied to the shuttle tiles,
I agree and you have a point .
But I am going to use a fact often used by the F-22 fans like me :
– The F-22 supercruise at very high altitude 🙂
Now tell me , what is the temperature of the F-22 ‘s airframe when flying at Mach 1.5+ , at 40000ft+ , against the very cold sky ? :diablo:
My guess is : 150+ celsius .
(A Mig-31 at Mach 2 is probably well over 250 celsius .)
(The Concorde at Mach 2 had its airframe lengthening by few centimeters :eek:)
A good IRST will spot the supercruising F-22 in no time at over 40km . But an IRST is not as precise as a TV for visual ID .
Now , if you have both … 😉
Cheers .
I would like to come back on the “missiles vs RAM“” topic .
What I really would like to have infos on is ,
-1) could some RAM layers been made to counter Ku and millimeter band ?
-2) would this layer be compatible with the “normal” RAM (X band) ?
-3) how thick would it needs to be ?
-4) is it feasible ?
I know that No1 is possible and No3 is would work with a thickness of about 0.25cm (millimeter band would be absorbed and Ku band would suffer a bit) . (edit —> using epoxy “ferrite” RAM)
Can someone help ? Thank you 🙂
Cheers .