Arthuro :

BW it would be nice if you could stop this perpetual pissing contest…

:confused:
It is not a pissing contest Arthuro ! I only used what we know about 2 fighters to try to draw a little scenario . I don ‘t present it as facts !

I took Rafale as an example because I know how the fighter can fight , but a Late Flanker or a F-22 could also try their own techniques and tricks .

Discussing about what the various late technologies bring into the combat equation is very interesting 🙂

Cheers .

Just a couple of things :

Scorpion82 :

the Ariel is not a broadcast style system. It generates jamming signals using the aircraft’s onboard DRFM and direct it towards the threat.

Until you give me a proof , I don ‘t believe it . As I see it , it is an almost impossible task .
Since it is a towed object , it moves a bit . To “direct” jamming signals towards the target , it would need to be Pesa or Aesa to be able to direct the beam(s) , but it is not such a system .
There are some jamming techniques DASS can do but not the Ariel .

The RAF’s DASS TRD is to be a development of BAE Systems Ariel system which has already been successfully deployed on RAF Tornado’s and Nimrod’s. The major physical difference is a decrease in the overall size enabling carriage within the Typhoon’s pods. The unit is deployed from the pod on a 100m Kevlar® cable containing a Fibre Optic (FO) link and a separate power distribution line. Through the FO cable the DAC’s techniques generator can send commands to the decoy based radio frequency emitter. The TRD can produce a range of jamming techniques to fool or lure the missile away from the aircraft.

http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/defences.html

Since the Ariel system is using the H to J bands , it is indeed specialized in fooling adverse missiles (if I am correct) .

Scorpion82 :

The reason why the Typhoon’s AG capabilities are more relevant for scenarios such as Afghanistan is that the aircraft can autonomously attack targets of opportunity as it features an LDP and suitable weapons. The AASM must be launched against coordinates, the RBE2 is unlikely to detect insurgents and as they don’t radiate your SPECTRA is of no help either. To attack insurgents with the AASM you require target coordinates from somewhere else, the Rafale is therefore dependent on other sources, while the Typhoon can be dependent, but isn’t dependent in the first place as it is capable of targeting this kind of targets itself with the Lightning IIIEF. You can also correct to targeting after the weapons has been dropped, something which is impossible with the AASM at least for now and the foreseeable future.

This is true .
The reason why the AdlA and the MN have decided to rush the AASM for A-Stan and not the Damoclès pod (for LGBs) is simple : we work with the Troops on the ground and everybody is equipped with laser-GPS designators . Since GPS coordinates are so easy to get from the people on the ground , an AASM will be on target before the LGB for obvious reasons (no need to fly near by the target , no need to keep a laser pod on it , etc)

With many weapons still not even fully cleared for operational use, I’d go for an F-15E, F-16 or F/A-18 as a benchmark for multirole capability, not for the Rafale.

The Rafale is of course cleared for LGB but lacks the pod , it can ‘t use unguided rockets either . It can do all the rest .
You see , I like to see a French fighter and its crew coming back from mission and the job done . I rate very highly the survivability and the capability to use precise stand-off weapons . In this regard , I rate the Rafale higher than the latest F-teens and yes we are still talking about multirole abilities .

Cheers .

Bloodshot :

“”Looks very similar to the manoeuvre being performed by the Typhoon here. –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kamcvr45-5g 0:49″”

Rather nice display btw . Indeed , the Typhoon is doing the square dance (the other way around) but the rolls are not “neat” . There is a slight roll around the axis (and not within) and this is something that can be seen in any Typhoon video . The reason being that the canards are too much up front and this has been talked to death .
Typhoon ‘s canards don ‘t help much the overall lift of the aircraft and they induce too much instability which makes the nose going all over the place (I exagerate on purpose) and this in itself makes the aircraft “bounce” around the axis , especialy at low speed . Then , the FBW is trying to do its best to correct the faulty flight but it is difficult .

This can seen later in the video , from 3:07 to 3:19 .
This behaviour can ‘t be seen with the Rafale , check as many videos as you wish .

“”The funny thing is that the Typhoon did just that at last years Paris Air Show -“”

:confused: No , it didn ‘t . Not in the video you posted anyway .
What the Rafale did was a low pass followed by a climb , then an half roll , then a looping while getting gears down followed by the landing .

Hello Lynstyne . Don ‘t attack the poster but what he/she says , or keep your tongue behind your teeth . Thank you .

Cheers .

jackjack :
“”after you back up what you said there with a link, i’d be happy to””

I understand your request and it is legitimate but I have none to give you .
AFAIK , it was AdA inside rumors and it has never been made public for obvious reasons . The AdA and the USAF simply agreed not to talk about .

These infos come from personal Mails in between AdA operatives leaked on the Net few years ago .

Cheers .

jackjack :
“”doesnt the 2000 have friend or foe id ?””

Everybody has , but not everybody is using it during real Ops and it is a known fact . That goes for every AirForce jack .
Now , some do not respect the usual BVR rules …

Cheers .

Hello Scorpion82 , you say :

“”And those manoeuvers are which exactly? “”

You answer your own question by quoting me :
“”Btw , Cédric Ruet only says that the “Square Dance” can hardly be done with the Typhoon , that the Rafale is the only one to start a straight vertical acceleration from 100 Knt and go looping (thanks the M88s) and is the only fighter to land after a low and hard looping .””

I know what the Square Dance is , I ‘ve got no less than 3 videos to show what it is and I also have a pdf which explain everything 😉

To make it short , the Square dance goes like this :
-start stabilized @ 380 Knt , inverted barrel then hard opposite 90deg turn , acceleration .
Repeat 4 times to make a square with a end speed of no less than 400 Knt .

The Typhoon can ‘t , the F-16/F-15/F-18 can ‘t and I am still waiting to see a Russian made aircraft trying it .

“”The same is true for the loop directly from the high alpha pass.””

With Le Bourget airport restrictions (as Cpt. C. Ruet said in the video) , only the Rafale could archive “the trick” .
I only repeat what is said by the Pilot .
You seem to know what you talk about but myself , I am no pilot . I can only post and translate at this time .

Cheers .

Hello Gentlemen 🙂

I ‘ve been browsing and reading your forums for a while now and I decided to join . I ‘ll try to be a fair , honest and good poster . I also hope to share a lot 🙂

High AoA , high Gs , high turn rates , etc are needed but what matter is the fly by wire . The Rafale has the best FBW Dassault ever made and that only says a lot . Dassault has always been the benchmark regarding FBWs .
What an aircraft can do during testing as nothing to do with what the aircraft will be capable to do in real Ops , obviously .
The Rafale has proven to be capable to fly very demanding patterns where other aircrafts could not , because of the FBW .
As a proof , we just have to look at this video :
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9n6fh_demonstration-du-rafale-dassault-av_tech

Rafale demo at Le Bourget , 2009 , commented by the demo pilot himself Cpt. Cédric “Rut” Ruet .
During the display , he says himself that 3 figures (manoevers) could only be done with the Rafale because of 1) better FBW and 2) acceleration and thrust .
He even quote the Typhoon not being able to reproduce what Rafale does .

Cheers .