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Paul Holtom

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  • in reply to: HMS Victorious #2040405
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    Oh well, I had a go anyway. But this does show the limitataions of Paint as opposed to photoshop:

    Thanks for that Obi Wan. What an addition to a carrier air group this a/c would have been, Tornado avionics at sea without having to develop a complete new airframe. In the opinion of quite a few people the Buccaneer was a better aircraft than its replacement!
    In the long run a refitted Eagle with Phantoms and an upgraded Buccaneer would have been a lot cheaper than building the three harrier carriers. I don’t think the Argentine would have even thought of an invasion of the Falklands had we had such a strike capability. Think of the lives saved not to mention the money the campaign to re-capture cost!

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2040415
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    Obi Wan, I think your quite right! The addition of the Eagle to the historic ships would have been the jewell in the crown for Portsmouth. And in my opinion the biggest crowd puller of any ship on display…if only!
    I have been on the USS Midway museum at San Deigo, California. It was packed with tourists! There were volunteers running tours around different aspects of the ship. Information boards against the aircraft and ships equipment were very informitive. I spent the whole day aboard and could have done the same the following day, however the wife has no passion for aircraft carriers…. or ex sailors any more come to think of it! The restaurant on the quarter deck proved the most intresting attraction of her and other companions who didn’t want to do the tours.
    The carrier display at Yeovilton is the best that can be done in the UK, however it will never capture the “awe” factor a real carrier would have done.

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2040428
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    One of the last three Buccs delivered in 77 which went to the MOD(PE) for trials work was fitted with the Tornado GR1 nose and avionics. this may give some idea of what could be achieved. The pseudo naval colour scheme is harder to explain, as the Navy had switched to all over dark sea grey ten years before this aircraft was built, and no naval aircraft had fin flashes either

    Obi Wan,Your Bucc, with the Tornado nose and avionics got me thinking how if things were different a mark 3 might have looked in Navy squadron service. Could you doctor the image to look like an 800 or 801 cab with “E” or “V” code? Your phantonised carriers were a real treat!
    Back in the mid 70s when we sailed out of Devonport on Ark Royal we would pass the mighty Eagle laid up in Plymouth sound. As I looked over her empty flight deck I would imagine what might have been, her air wing on board…899 Phantoms with the flying fist on the fin and 800 Buccaneers etc. However she had now taken on a stillness. Where her jets once thundered, now nothing but silence… eerie but still a sense of awe about her.

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043170
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    Superb shots Obi Wan, I agree the Vic was the best looking carrier we ever had. Pity about her premature end.
    Capt Eric “Winkle” Brown in his book -Wings On My Sleeve- made the following statement about this episode;- “The year 1969 found the Fleet Arm absorbing the sad truth that the labour government was hell-bent on inflicting irreparable damage on naval aviation,for it had decided to axe yet another fleet carrier after CVA 01.It was now the turn of HMS Victorious,which had gone into dock in 1967 for a major refit, during which it suffered a minor fire in the galley. On that flimsy excuse it was paid off in 1968 and was earmarked for the ship breakers yard”.
    His book also contains a photo of an 801 squadron Buccaneer S2 in all over dark sea gray, call sign 234 with Victorious code letter “V” on the fin. 801 never embarked on the Vic with this colour scheme.

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043669
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    Obi Wan, your remark about the Buccs coming out of maintenance having a six in one chance of going back to the RN. Have you taken into account the following two points.
    No airframe with a serial after XV869 ever served with the Navy!
    No aircraft equipped with a bomb door tank ever served with the Navy!
    I think all the S2B aircraft were fitted with this mod. The S2C/S2D aircraft never had this fitted. We had great fun on 809 removing and installing the bomb bay tank when a change of roll was required! You would normally end up soaked in and stinking of avcat.
    Incidentally Buccaneer XV333 an aircraft I worked on in 1976 (809) is now in the fleet air arm museum, in the colours of 801 squadron which it wore 1969. However it has a bomb door tank fitted! This would have been installed sometime after 1978 when the aircraft was converted from an S2D to an S2B for RAF service.

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043675
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    It wasn’t for lack of knowledge about how to do it, the prototype S2 was a re engined S1 anyway. The only difference between the S1 and the S2 was the engines and their intakes, and once the S2 entered service it would have been straightforward to convert the remaining S1s.

    Any idea why the Avon was never considered for the S1? I know the Sapphire was first choice and then for reasons of size dropped in favor of the Gyron Junior. The Spey engined S2 came soon after the S1 entered service. How would the Spey compare in size to the Avon? As the Spey wasn’t around when the Buccaneer was in the development stage I always wondered why they never built an Avon engined Buccaneer from the outset!

    Obi Wan, have you any data on the date of the last flight of an S1? Also did an S1 ever fly in RAF camouflage?

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043771
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    237OCU handled all Buccaneer training from 72 onwards, taking over from 736NAS. All buccs were built for carrier ops, though RAF examples simply had the catapult spools ‘unbolted’ in service. converting them back wouldn’t have been a big job, probably a few hours work. 237OCU operated a small pool of Navy configured Buccs not only to provide training for FAA crews but to act as rapid replacements for any aircraft lost by 809NAS in service, hence the 809 painted example mentioned above (the aforementioned PTF served a similar funtion for 892, and 849HQ flight operated three AEW3 Gannets in the seventies for B flight’s benefit). The Buccs pictured here are painted in 809 colours, but the lack of side numbers on the nose indicates they are on the strength of 237 as reserve aircraft for 809. I have a picture (not on my computer sadly) of a 237 aircraft in RAF camo on the static steam catapult at RAE Bedford so some of the S2A/S2Bs also had catapult points.

    Obi Wan, As you point out the Bucc’s in your photos are reserve a/c for 809. They must have come out of storage for the air show(s) they are attending. The lack of under wing pylons and slipper tanks also points to this. I can identify them as S2C/D (the earlier S2 prior to 1973 can be visually identified by having two aerials of the same size on the spine) aircraft by the larger front aerial on the spine. Wonder why the letter “R” (Ark Royal code letter) has been left off the tail fin? It’s not as if 809 could deploy to another carrier post ’73!

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043775
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    [ATTACH]169527[/ATTACH]

    Here is a shot of Victorious on her last commission. 801 squadron Buccaneers can be seen on deck in dark sea gray and white. As far as I know 801 was the only squadron to take the Bucc s2 on board in this colour scheme. However I have seen a shot of some 809 squadron aircraft on the Hermes some in all over dark sea gray and one or two in dark sea gray/white.

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043788
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    [ATTACH]169518[/ATTACH]

    [ATTACH]169519[/ATTACH]

    Obi wan, your knowledge and photo records are superb! I think the mods (removal of cat hooks and hold back gear… etc) to the ex navy bucc’s on the RN unit were carried out at Belfast. New fairings were added where the hold back was removed and the cat hook doors were removed and paneled over. One cab I worked on when on 809 squadron XV333 call sign 030 started off as a Navy cab then to the RAF and back to the Navy on 809. The only explanation I can think of is the RAF took over too many a/c and in the end had to give some back!

    To keep this thread on track I thought it would be a good idea to attach these photos of the Vic during rebuild in the ’50s.

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043806
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    Further to my post above, when I joined the RN unit at RAF Honington in August 1974 all bar one aircraft were in RAF camouflage 237 OCU markings with the addition of a naval style crown in stick on dayglow red on the port and starboard engine panels. None of these aircraft as far as I remember had hold back gear or catapult hooks. XV338 and XV160 are the two I remember. Nether of these or any of the other a/c I remember would have been capable of carrier opps. My point is the RAF coloured Bucc on Ark would not have come from the RN unit at Honington not least at that time!

    The only Navy cab on the RN unit was XV869 which was still wearing the markings of 736 squadron! However it had been up graded to S2″D” standard.It was later painted up with 809 squadron markings when transferred in 1975.

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043809
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    Thanks again for your very comprehensive answer. I had seen the photo of the RAF cam’ed 766 phantom somewhere before, however I never knew the explanation.

    I have also seen a photo of a RAF Cam’ed Buccaneer on Ark’s waist cat, serial partly visible XV…… Any ideas on that?

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043838
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l88/paul0303/F8CrusaderOnboardVictorious1967.jpg
    This shot taken in ’67 shows Victorious cross operating with the yanks who were using the very a/c Argentina would have used had they purchased the Vic in the late ’60s!

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043841
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    Thanks for your reply Obi Wan!

    Makes you wonder why Eagle didn’t get the Phantom refit in ’66 instead of Ark which had considerable more work needed to bring her up to date. Would it not have cost less to operate the F4s from a refitted Eagle?

    in reply to: HMS Victorious #2043855
    Paul Holtom
    Participant

    Why did the Navy never fit HMS Ark Royal (scraped 1979) with the type 984 radar? It was fitted to HMS Hermes from 1959 to 1970 and removed before she became a helicopter carrier in 1973, HMS Victorious before re-commissioning in 1958 and removed at Portsmouth prior to scraping in 1968, HMS Eagle from 1964 until the end of her last commission in 1972, she was towed to the breakers yard in 1978 with the large “dustbin” type radar aerial still in place above the island. In addition to the type 984 Eagle also had the type 965 (double bedstead) radar on the aft of the island.

    Ark Royal went into refit in 1966, when she re-commissioned in 1970 she was given two Type 965 radars (double bedstead) and also a new US type CCA (Carrier Controlled Approach) radar. Was this a superior system to the 984? or a cost cutting measure? I would imagine the system from Victorious would have been available if needed!

Viewing 14 posts - 106 through 119 (of 119 total)