Bandit78Sounds like prototypes.
Bandit78Us legislators saw how Pakistan pulled a Taliban #3 out hours after Cheney’s visit. They know that Pakistan probably has terrorists hidden for future release. Why not use F-16s as bargain for those people? Good idea IMO.
Bandit78Dems threaten Pakistani arms deal
BARRY SCHWEID
Associated Press
WASHINGTON – Senate Democrats are threatening to withhold delivery of jet fighter planes to Pakistan if it does not intensify its campaign against terrorists.
The Bush administration opposed an even tougher move in the House that would condition U.S. military aid to stronger anti-terror efforts. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher told a House Foreign Affairs subcommittee Wednesday the arms package should not be held out as a reward to Pakistan.
Boucher said Pakistan is fighting Taliban militia for its own good and that the United States and other nations benefit as a result.
At stake is the long-delayed sale of 18 new jet fighters, an opportunity to buy 18 more and refurbishing 34 used aircraft already in Pakistan’s air force arsenal.
Three Democratic senators – John Kerry of Massachusetts, Christopher Dodd of Connecticut and Joe Biden of Delaware – put the threat in the form of a nonbinding resolution.
Its aim is to make clear to Pakistan that U.S. military assistance will be assessed in how hard the South Asian ally cracks down on Taliban forces, which are expected to launch a spring offensive in Afghanistan from havens in Pakistan, and on the al-Qaida terror network.
“We must never forget the importance of going after the terrorists before they strike,” Kerry said.
At the House hearing, meanwhile, Chairman Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y., told Boucher that many members of Congress were “puzzled why we are not doing more to put in some backbone” with Pakistan.
“We would like to see a little more muscle behind the policy,” Ackerman said.
In the same vein, Rep. David Scott, D-Ga., told Boucher: “I do not believe we are making all the progress we should be making.” Scott said the terrorists had havens in Pakistan’s border areas and “it doesn’t seem we are getting our money’s worth” from U.S. assistance to Pakistan.
But Boucher described Pakistan as “a vital partner and ally in our fight against the Taliban and al-Qaida.”
The State Department official said the solution was not entirely a military one. Boucher said the Pakistan president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, was pursuing economic and social reform in the border areas where terrorists have havens.
The Bush administration is supporting the effort, but Boucher did not specify how much U.S. assistance will go into it.
“We will continue to work with the government of Pakistan to develop a long-term strategic partnership that is multifaceted and committed to the peace and security” of the region, he said.
Bandit78http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006/07/30/story_30-7-2006_pg7_1
During last week’s hearing on F-16s to Pakistan, State Department Assistant Secretary John F Hillen said that the aircraft being given to Pakistan will not have the capability to be used in offensive ways to penetrate the air space of another country which was highly defended, nor will the aircraft be “nuclear capable”.
The official’s answer, which went largely unnoticed by the media, was made to a question from California congressman Dana Rohrabacher. It showed that the F-16s being sold to Pakistan would be stripped of key technologies. Rohrabacher asked what would happen to the US-supplied high-tech equipment, if “Pakistan falls like the Shah of Iran”. In response, Hillen noted that despite the public notification, US F-16 Block C/D approved for the Pakistan Air Force would be stripped of several key technologies that would otherwise be part of the package to prevent the aircraft from being used for “offensive purposes”. He essentially said that the F-16s sold to Pak would basically be unable to launch attacks into well-defended foreign air spaces.
Hillen said, “I would note, Mr Rohrabacher, that in our structure of the sale, I referred to before a set of documents never before shared in an arms notification process, between the executive branch and Congress, that I made the decision to share. And it enumerated the technologies were not, that would usually go with an F-16, that are not part of this deal. And they include ones that would allow the F-16 to be used in offensive ways to penetrate airspace of another country that was highly defended. So, I think that’s worth noting.”
Bandit78Speaking of irrelevant nations, it is funny to see a Bangladeshi complaining about Indians with “Western names” when he has a nick that points to the army of another nation.
Only on Key mags.
BTW, those jingoists who say that Pakistan with a few dozen FC-1s can take care of their “non first world” adversary should get into the habit of reading the magazines that spawn this forum.
I recall a detailed feature on Air International in 2002 that did an estimation of how long PAF might last when facing this “non first world” threat.
Ten days was the limit I believe. Not bad for a “non first world” airforce. 🙂 We aim to please.
Bandit78Nick_76,
You forgot that countries whose rulers killed 70 million of their own have a serious problem about making up for their military puissance. When you are run over and ruled by a tiny island next door, you perhaps tend to take it out on your own people to make up for your frustration.
No wonder our resident chauvinist feels like he has to ride the coattails of his co-ethnics in small islands. When your real country is best at killing only its own, you tend to settle for anyone as a rolemodel.
Bandit78The J-10 IS rarely seen, except by people near Chengdu or a flight test center or base taking pictures and spreading them around on the internet. And China cancelled further purchases of Russian fighters. Doesn’t that tell you something?
So if it is so rarely seen, how do you know that it has been inducted in numbers? You cnanot have it both ways. If it is a super duper top secret, then there are equal odds of the plane being rejected by its customer as it is of being accepted as the mainstay.
Can you show me a govt press release that says the Russian fighter orders have been cancelled? In a country that lies about basic defense budget numbers, we are supposed to go by rumors?
BTW, you owe me the list of countries which have refused to acknowledge the existence of “top end” :rolleyes: fighters AFTER they have allegedly been inducted.
The US may have secret planes but they never refused to talk about the F-16s/F-15s/F-18s etc.
Bandit78Secrecy is part of their system of government. I’d think that this has a lot to do with it. Until the Soviet system gave out, they were pretty damn secretive themselves as well.
Ah you are dodging the point. Can you think of any other country that refuses to ACKOWLEDGE the EXISTENCE of its “frontline” fighter AFTER its supposed induction and plans to order several hundred?
If you are seen with a woman that is hinted to be your wife after the alleged marriage is done, isn’t it ridiculous? Especially when you regularly see another woman 😀
Secrecy about weapons that are rarely seen is normal. Secrecy about “top end” fighters? Ridiculous. Unless of course the “top end” fighter is just a facade to hide your purchase of reliable Russian jets.
Bandit78SOC,
Secret projects are common to all countries. But this one country every other project is a secret.
Can you show other examples of countries where their purported “frontline super duper” fighter was a secret even after its supposed induction?
You and I have secrets my friend. But when we drive a new car that everyone sees us driving and say that the car is a “secret” we become laughing stocks of the neighborhood. It becomes even more suspect if we order another car from a reliable manufacturer. People wonder if that “secret” car really works.
Bandit78So here is one more fact –
Most of the world’s nations have militaries and military projects. They also have secret projects but no one is so afraid of truth that they refuse to talk abut their so called frontline fighter. Even the USSR and the Luftwaffe had no qualms showing off their top end planes. But this one country is afraid to talk about its “top” plane even as it buys hundreds of Russian fighters. Why? It’s a secret. 🙂
Except for this “superpower”, no other country in the world refuses to talk about its primary weapons nor covers up deaths of AWACS engineers. But in a country whose founder killed 70 million of his own people, what’s a few AWACS personnel or a few dozen sailors killed by crappy local submarines. Hey, it’s all a secret.
No wonder PAF is begging for 18 F-16s instead of depending on planes from a country that is afraid to put its stuff to the reality test. Would you want your main weapon that its maker is afraid to acknowledge openly?
The only thing more ridiculous than calling the “frontline fighter” a secret is to say that the country’s capital is a secret. 😀
Edit – SOC – Noted your comments.
Bandit78Pakistan may not face a first world airforce but they were able to survive so far mainly because they had a lot of free US stuff. That may not be the case in the future if the majority of the Pakistani stuff is a from a country which is so afraid of the truth that it tries to hide AWACS crashes and refuses to talk about its “top” fighter jets.
But despite the fact that a country is pushing the FC-1 for next to nothing, PAF is grovelling and bending over for 18 F-16s. Makes you wonder if even the PAF thinks that the FC-1 is good for combat outside of the photoshop realm. But the geniuses of PAF probably have a reason to buy the FC-1s. They have to fight the Afghanistan air force and take on the bow and arrow armed Al Qaeda flying carpets. I’m sure the FC-1 will be up to the task. 🙂
As to the other “non first world” adversaries that PAF faces, PAF has the option of sitting out wars as in 1999 or fly a small amount of sorties as they did a couple of decades prior to that.
Bandit78Or perhaps that they just view the F-16 as a superior aircraft. It’s called a “high-low” mix.
So if your high is shaky, you wouldn’t want to face even your “non first world” enemy with a low end plane would you? Even if your enemy’s real gun is not a new one, would you want to face him with a paper gun?
As to the other, when a country is so proud of its super duper top of the line plane that is so secret that it is an open secret, why is it so afraid to tell the world what it’s airforce is dying to get? Oh I know, it is a secret. 🙂 :rolleyes:
Or is it that the plane’s sexiness is largely a product of the aforementioned photoshop jockeys?
Bandit78The actual first world air forces in Asia (Japan, Taiwan, South Korea) don’t have to cite a list where the most of the items do not exist today and have no guarantee of existing in the numbers quoted tomorrow or anytime soon.
Perhaps. But this may still be better than airforces whose planes have great “features” that largely come out of here or come out of the imagination of message board users.
The very fact that Pakistan is accepting insane and humiliating conditions for a handful of F-16s suggests what the Paks REALLY think about the FC-1. That PAF is working so hard to beg for a few F-16s when another country is offering its super duper planes with great deals should tell that country where it really stands.
Bandit78Boss, final note about Kargil. Airforces know that losing planes is part of war. One Airforce fought despite heavy odds and another one chickened out and refused to fight despite seeing their countrymen dying. At the end of the day, most people would prefer airforces that fight versus those that hide in their bases to protect their planes.
As to F-16s, the facts are what they are. That PAF has accepted these terms and that the F-16s are de-fanged versions is a matter of public record. When defanged planes are given to an airforce that picks and chooses when to defend its motherland is what we have here.
The rest is conjecture. 🙂
Bandit78Boss, see the hearing video where the SD official says a couple of times that USAF people will be on PAF bases that station the F-16s all the time. He also says that PAF will not be allowed to station the F-16s in bases other than the ones they get cleared by US and PAF will not be allowed to base the F-16s in any of their bases where non US aircraft is also based.
As to two-finger salute, we saw that in Kargil. Oops, that was the PAF’s salute to PA when they refused to fight when called upon. But that’s another story for another day.
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