One more thing. Given that our desi media is a bit slow and finds defense matters to be hard to understand, I would bet that this news of PAF getting “watered down” F-16 C/Ds will be published in a matter of days to weeks in the Pakistani media.

Given that the sale is going through – many will hope for ‘stripped down versions’ to be supplied. There doesn’t seem to be much evidence of this from the specifications notified to Congress. 🙂

Depends where you look. I suggest you watch the July 20 US Conressional Hearing on the F-16s to Pakistan. Recording is available at:

http://boss.streamos.com/real/hir/56_fcs071906.smi

If you fast forward to 1 hour and 25 minute mark, you will see the following statement by the US State Department official:

I would note, Mr. Rohrabacher, that in our structure of the sale, I referred to before a set of documents never before shared in an arms notification process, between the executive branch and Congress, that I made the decision to share.

And it enumerated the technologies were not, that would usually go with an F-16, that are not part of this deal. And they include ones that would allow the F-16 to be used in offensive ways to penetrate airspace of another country that was highly defended. So, I think that’s worth noting.

You have the US govt official in charge of the sale telling officially that the US will not send technologies in this deal that normally come with these F-16s. He specifically says that the F-16s will not be able to penetrate highly defended airspaces.

In the beginning of the hearing the official says that US personnel will be always in PAF F-16 bases and will be able to influence how and where they are used.

Seems to me to be a bit more than normal security conditions.

Complete, absolute & utter nonsense. No significant military company owns its sources of raw materials.

Swerve, This guy is a troll. Not worth the time.

Don’t let this tread once again become a “My fighter is better than Your”-tread. If anyone would like to discuss the Sino-Indian relations once again, please start a new tread.

This one here is for the LCA !! … and as far as I can say I’m mostly interested in its current status, its future and especially in its roots !

Fair enough. Most of us are here because we are aviation fans and want to find out what is going on in different parts of the world.

It is quite annoying to see posts (not by you 🙂 ) whose aim seems to be to bait flames.

The LCA project is in a quieter stage now with weapons integration and new radar being added on due to MMR delays. We will see more pics and reports during early part of 2007 if all goes well.

I’m not Pakistani and have absolutely nothing to be proud of the FC-1.

Flaming?

BTW, being “proud” of a plane to which a country’s contribution is little more than its new name is … how shall I put it…. 😮 I had a friend who liked to give names to children he never fathered. Something like that. Some countries make planes, some try to make them and others “feel proud” to give them names without contributing even a coat of paint.

Now get to the topic or not post here.

I ask the Indians on this thread to stop acting like babies. Pakistanis can name their missiles anything they want, Babur or Dabur, its their choice. If they feel that it is somehow a psychological thing to use the names of people from other lands, they jolly well can.

Now to the point – This missile does alter the strategic equation, but not by that much. First generation cruise missiles can be shot down with any modern LLQRM based air defense system. But of course it gives Pakistan a different flavor and another weapon in the arsenal. If made in numbers, it does make it hard for any air defense system to cope. It makes Pakistan’s nuclear delivery ability more assured.

Now, talking of the range, it is the easiest thing in any missile to change. BrahMos is officially 290 km, when the legally allowed range for MTCR is 300 km :D. Make your own decisions. All I’ll say is look at the range changes in the development of the Moskit. The 290 km official 😉 range is with a 470 kg warhead. With a 200 kg warhead and flying at just above supersonic speed, any rocket simulator can tell you that the BrahMos can go at least 600 km in a lo-hi-lo path. So if anyone thinks that the Babur is the longest ranged cruise missile in South Asia, their is this bridge in London…. 😉 A couple of months back India Today quoted an Indian official saying that between the 3 services India will induct 1000 BrahMos missiles over the next few years. Therefore, those dreaming of Pakistan launching US style “shock and awe” attacks 😀 can come back to earth because whatever Pakistan launches, India will be able to launch double the number of missiles on first notice and then it will be “awe shucks” time. 😉

Next thing is about usage which makes the above (fun) argument totally moot. When the Pakistan ISPR spokesman has officially said that the Babur missile can carry nuclear warheads, he has officially closed the book on any conventional use for that missile. Do you think that once a cruise launch is detected, India will sit and wait for the hit to see if it was nuclear? If Pakistan launches a couple of Baburs, it better be prepared to lose a fraction 😉 of its population before the news of the impact of Baburs reaches back home. The Indian draft nuclear doctrine is flexible enough to account for these types of scenarios where there is doubt. Those still in doubt in Pakistan can launch a Babur towards India and test it for themselves. 😉

Finally, a lot is said about the pedigree of this missile. I’m not going to say this is a Chinese or some other country made one until after news emerges. Jane’s and Kanwa are likely hard at work as I type this :D. But those with any knowledge of defense affairs can tell you that even the mighty US and former USSR could not serial produce a new missile immediately after the first flight test. Mere variants of US missiles take a handful of tests and user trials before induction, what to talk of new missiles. And please don’t tell me that Pakistan has secretly flight tested this one before, for such news always leaks out. We will eventually come to know from where this one was sourced from, but that is just for academic interest. And please, don’t give me the statement from minister thing as “proof” of anything. What do you expect him to say – “See we wanted to get a missile to match BrahMos so we bought it from our all weather pal China” :rolleyes:

I know all this is not going to stop those who want to rejoice 😉 and “liberate” Kashmir etc. But I’m sure that Musharraf and co have learnt their lessons and understand the reality of things.

Peace on earth.