a sorry 4 hour endurance * means the user country would need a larger fleet to provide effective surveillance. Certainly an issue regarding 24/7 patrols. In comparison the E2/E3/Saab2000/Embraer/Phalcon systems all have 8-9 hour endurance.
* manufacturer info
Don’t forget it’s for more than just Australia’s national defense but the most likelyhood of usage for new planes is in support of US led international operations. Typically Air patrol, LGB role, CAS support.
but anyway.. a positive aspect of adding F-22A in national defense would be as a stealth datalink resource in air dominance that can patrol large areas and feed target data to a F/A-18 or JSF launch platform (etc) using BVR missiles. But man I really despise the JSF. Sorry. For filling a gap though I would suggest more F/A-18s because there’s just no way JSF even if not further delayed will exist in any substantional operational number for a very long time.
Boeing and the US Navy will support the F/A-18 platform for another 30+ years, mind you, they won’t be getting any F-22’s either.
wow I’ve never heard a Defence Minister use that harsh language on a issue like this, either it’s his personality or he’s truly angry…
as maintainance friendly compared to the Apache
That’s a safe thing to say 🙂 This is one of the reasons why we selected the Leopard II tank instead over Abrams.
with better manouverability
Compared to Apache or to Swedish MBB BO-105 choppers?
and its ability to penetrate much further into swedens defences than they thought possible
I dunno how any military person in Sweden would think otherwise since we at the time had no sensors and protection against chopper or cruise missile attacks at all other than visual (eyes).
The doctrine at the time was to deny any launch platform to come within distance to fire missiles. And if an army came in with choppers then it would be dealt with 40/57mm bofors and RbS70 MANPADS at the actual scene of the crime.
So it just sounds like statements not fixated in reality.
Edit: I pulled out the latest on this issue from a credible source:
The Havoc is not in the running. As expected it was never really going to be a candidate due to the origins of the craft.
Bell AH-1W Super Cobra is out of the competition.
In the competition:
Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow, Eurocopter EC 505 Tiger, Agusta A129 Mangusta and Atlas CSH-2 Rooivalk.
Some have been tested in Sweden, some in other countries.
The decision for (designation: HKP16) is to be made before 2010.
I never heard anything that I can remember about the performance aspects of the Havoc in Sweden, I have a feeling much if not all of that info is internet myth.
At least nothing has been made public by the military. It’s also not something that has and is discussed among my fellow countrymen as far as I can tell.
And there’s just no way in hell we would ever buy Russian choppers. The east-euro BMP-1/MBTL were bought to remove them from the market and add some armor to infantery until our own fleet of Cv90’s were ready.
@ datafuser, thanks
@ swerve
“I’m looking forward to Farnborough, to see the carrier proposal, etc.”
You going there ? I hope you bring a camera 🙂 I read that SAAB will have their largest ever display at Farnborough this year. They have offices near-by btw.
@ sferrin
Could it be commonality with the F404 they’re already using?
Could be that and/or the close relationship GE-Volvo.. to quote volvo:
“We are a partner with GE in the F414 engine for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. The F414 has a thrust of 98.0 kN (22,000 lb) with afterburner and 67 kN (14,756 lb) without afterburner.
We produce the mid frame, fan disc 1 and the compressor case assy. We will have design responsibility for these parts regarding future sustaining engineering”
http://www.volvo.com/volvoaero/global/en-gb/businesssolutions/OEM/component+partner+-+military/F414/
As for the RM12 they say:
“We supply the RM12 engine for the Saab/BAe Gripen aircraft. We also produce several parts for this engine, such as: fan/compressor discs, compressor spool, hubs, seals, fan/compressor case and afterburner liner. We are also responsible for final assembly of the complete engine as well as product support. “
This sounds similar to KAI’s F-50 proposal which is basically an F414-engined single-seat derivative of the A-50.
Cheers,
Sunho
aha, do you have more info on the F-50 ? (I know pretty much the general A-50 and T-50 info)
maybe if it’s too much OT it can go to a new thread…
Swedes did point out that ej200 (and even ej220, as its same size as i understand) engine would be compatible and that they’ve looked into integrating it on the gripen. But its the customer who’d pay for that extra development and intregration, if it wants more thrust. Not sure if they’re not killing some of their potential sales with that kind of attitude.
1.
Sweden has a export support system in place where it’s basically national security to support the local weapons industry or the armed forces of friendly nations, and thus we have several examples where Sweden will finance the development costs, logistical buildup etc. And according to the defense budget for the next 5 years this support is to be increased regarding the Gripen system and the military wants to build one or more demonstrators showing new capabilities.
2.
“While the Gripen’s current Volvo Aero-supplied RM12 turbofan engine could be further modified to deliver a 10-15% increase in thrust to meet future fighter requirements in Denmark and Norway, company officials say the installation of thelarger General Electric F414 could provide 25% more power, increasing the aircraft’s operating range and payload.”
(other interesting news in that url btw, such as a carrier version)
They didnt buy either, Apache was too expensive and Mi-28 i believe did not have the operating capablities they were seeking… BTW I am there now and will ask around a bit more as to the exact story. Will take a week or so.
The purpose of the trials was not to buy a chopper at the time, but to gather information as to how much of local logistics can be used, the costs of special Swedish requirements (all weather capability, de-icing feature, manuals etc) the prospects of licenses, the possibility to modify the craft accordingly. For instance the Mi-28 was only interesting if it could be mounted with French avionics.
The cost calculations surrounded 2 squadrons of 40 crafts in total, the break-even cost when logistics/support systems no longer took > 50% of the budget was at 20 individuals (choppers)
The aim with this was to bring info to a procurement for a introduction date 2012 but this is now delayed and the requirement likely less than 20 units.
After supporting winter tests of the Westland WAH-64 in Sweden I would say this version is a front runner, followed by Rooivalk due to offset/political reasons involving SAAB. WAH-64 because of the UK assembly line, a close relationship in the EU battle groups and industry, new engine, and de-icing system.
The trials with the American AH-64’s were impressive as Sweden already use the Hellfire missile on a man-portable tripod system and could use the AH-64 as designator and fire missiles from land positions.
But the conclusion at the time was this, No chopper on the market at the time of the trials (’95) suited Swedish requirements.
Here’s photos from 95


a Scania refuel truck providing liquid lunch to two thirsty Americans
And here’s from the WAH-64 tests in 2003. (done for the UK)
swedish NH-90´s are made in Finland or in Sweden?
Neither. In France at Eurocopter Marignane. The frontal fuselage + 175 more is built in Sweden though at Saab as offset.
After delivery from the factory the chopper will go to SAAB for installation of tactical systems such as map, weapons systems and radar.
USA wants rescue units to be availabe in case any of their pilots has to bail out over Serbia, and they are willing to pay for this training.
That’s it.
Not any longer.
Interesting to note that the press release came after the second firing, and not the first.
Yeah I was worried when I heard about the first launch and no official PR at the time… and as the MBDA press release that you pasted state they now acknowledge a glitch with the first missile…
Btw, BAe’s and Saab have relations on contracts signed before they split and share everything 50/50. SAAB now do all marketing alone but can still in special circumstances cooperate with BAe on new projects/deals.. BAe is also a share holder of SAAB. But eh, all this is not very relevant to the METEOR project.
A minor glitch was observed during the first missile firing with the missile failing to transition to the sustain phase of flight and therefore continuing over the pre-determined flight time under boost impulse, gradually decelerating through the flight. The source of this failure was quickly identified and a modification made which was subsequently proven during the second firing with the missile successfully transitioning from the boost to the sustain phase of flight and completing a series of post-transition manoeuvres”.
Gripen is used because of several reasons:
1. Sweden has ordered Saab to integrate the METEOR on Gripen. This has not been done by any other nation while that is the future intention.
2. Sweden signed in 2001 a international deal to provide one jet and associated test area dedicated to METEOR developments.
3. A.) The Gripen Radar fully cover the METEOR operating envelope and is easy to modify by software.
B) Rafale doesn’t with the current RBE2 radar, and Eurofighter is not in the words of “jane’s” ‘Mature’ to take on the BVR task as there’s other priorities to deal with due to delays in that program. (This could have been different with the added financial support of the MOD)
4. Gripen’s datalink architecture is also easy to modify to fully take advantage of the METEOR communication.
5. The Swedish FMV/Gripen test team have experience as the only nation outside the US with integration tests of new AMRAAMs. There’s about 10 nations at the Vidsel range at all time, using the on-site test equipment, communication systems etc + no external interference in the form of civilian electrical lights, cell phone networks etc.
i.e it’s just another day at the job… as for other teams it would be ‘special days’
Necessity is the Mother of Innovation.
For instance with Sweden, China, Israel, to some extent Iran who all were partners with US firms but had to find other ways when policy changed.
I can tell this story… Sweden placed an order on 294 planes + a very large amount of engines in the late 1930s as the Euro situation worsened. But in the fall of 1940 with only 60 planes delivered, the US president signed a new defense act banning the export of military items.
Within weeks the Swedish gov ordered Nohab Aero (Now Volvo Aero) to copy the design while they also negotiated a license. No license was granted. This event led the way to the growth of the Swedish aeronautics industry… and since then all vital parts not fully designed in Sweden come with a production license… 🙂
Maybe all because of that one temporary US policy in 1940.
And in recent times, before the new closer relationship with the US (2001+) the US would officially use the AMRAAM as a tool to pressure Sweden not to sell Gripen jets to some countries when LM also had jets in the race. (South Africa, Chile)
So Sweden turned to other missile manufacturer in the world and integrated these on the jet. Now a customer can use Israeli, French, German or British missiles as well as American ones… LM basically got kicked in the ass by Raytheon who previously held a practical monopoly for weapons on the Gripen.
Just sharing some stories… cos they still apply to current events.. 🙂
I completely lost you here.
Are you saying Elta of Israel doesn’t have the AESA technology?
cause I really didn’t catched you here.
As I mentioned it’s down to the new patented manufacturing technique for microwave modules. Just look around you, who is the world leader in microwave transmission ? Ericsson.
Coupled with American expertise and proven capability in AESA radars they have reduced the costs and risk during development to bring two technologies together. The Gripen one will also have extended azimuthal coverage via a movable array mounting platform.
Ericsson have demonstrated an array with 15,000 modules but they didn’t specifically say if it was for the next generation EriEye project or a smaller one. There’s also cooperation with SELEX Sistemi Integrati (formerly Alenia Marconi Systems) on radar systems but that’s another issue.