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  • in reply to: Saab JAS 39 Gripen info #2489742
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    I don’t quite understand how F35 and Gripen can be in the same competition. They are half or a full generation apart. They are vastly different in weight. F35 is not available yet or fully tested. It is going to cost a lot more than Gripen. Gripen is the first mil jet I’ve seen that breaks the ‘cost increase’ curve, and why not? Why do people always EXPECT everything to get more expensive all the time? Sure… things are more complex, but the design tools and techniques are better.

    If someone suddenly finds a way around stealth (if they haven’t already), JSF will be an overnight expensive flop, and a big waste of money to anyone who buys it.

    Other for lack of options… “stealth” is not a requirement in any current and near forseen tender in the west today so it doesn’t really matter if it’s good or not. It’s a requirement of the USAF and that’s it. The reason F-35 is considered in Europe is because it’s a program that promise multirole capability that can replace their F-16s.

    The way they organised the program by inviting foreign companies under government support also gave the jet a head start in the tenders. Which has annoyed some competitiors so much they even refuse to participate. Gripen NG has come in later on with a product tailored for the export market with a target beyond 2015 so it’s fully capable to replace the F-16s and also offering low purchase and operating costs which tbh any jet must do lower than F-35 to even be considered.

    I still doubt it, but I hope Norway will give Sweden twelve (douze) points 😎

    in reply to: Saab JAS 39 Gripen info #2489830
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    More than twice as many Norwegians support Gripen over JSF according to a national poll for state owned TV.

    http://i35.tinypic.com/2hgs2l1.jpg

    Many undecided but that’s a pretty low number for the F-35 IMO considering that the country has never flown Swedish jets…

    src

    in reply to: Saab JAS 39 Gripen info #2491237
    signatory
    Participant

    Yeah Swerve I’m gonna expect same price with hopes for lower but the price issue is not my concern… doesn’t really matter since no country (?) buy just the jets… it’s just the typical fanboy cr4p on forums where people compare rumoured package prices from a few deals over the years then divide the costs by the number of planes and then think it’s somehow representative despite all packages contain different stuff, different exchange rates etc…

    Kind of silly tbh.

    (And Lockheed unlike the rest in the field usually for program reasons talk JSF prices in 2002 dollars while the GAO use current year dollars and then people don’t get why there’s different prices in the news all the time..)

    Anyway, a pic for the thread. Nice to see the IRIS-T and HMD out there.

    http://i35.tinypic.com/259h5k8.jpg

    in reply to: Saab JAS 39 Gripen info #2491290
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    Participant

    I certainely doubt the NG will be cheaper than the C/D model, if only because of inflation; lets first see if it is ever produced.

    Inflation… lol ! And you don’t think the 39C price is affected by the same inflation rate? :confused: And the fact is Gripen is offering fixed price deals on Gripen NG. They wouldn’t do that if they didn’t have good numbers.

    Babelfished from interview with Marketing Director Bob Kemp.

    Surprisingly he said that the future Gripen NG will cost even less than the aircraft’s generation C / D, by making greater use of electronic technologies COTS (civilian technologies harnessed for military use – Conventional Off The Shelf) and, especially, by employing the engine GE F-414 American standard, unlike the previous Gripen, he used an improved version of Volvo Aero turbine GE F-404. Using the new engine will reduce by 20% the cost of motorization.

    Our proposal of 48 Gripen NG went to Denmark by 20 billion Danish kroner (U.S. $ 3.39 Bi), including training , Spare parts and logistics

    Another interview.

    A Saab executive said the collapse of the dollar has helped lower Gripen’s prices, as about a third of the content is sourced from the United States, with the other two-thirds split roughly between Swedish and European suppliers.

    The British executive said Lockheed Martin had underestimated the potential sales threat from the Gripen, which had probably stayed close to its initial unit price of about $40 million [/B]

    If you bake in costs for simulators, 20 yrs of spares, training, drop tanks, helmets, pylons etc then you can hit USD 70m per Gripen NG.

    in reply to: Saab JAS 39 Gripen info #2491299
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    39E/F will enter Swedish Air Force as a upgrade to the 39C/D from 2018 unless Norway buy the jet then Sweden has commited to accepting early deliveries around 2015-2016.

    Gripen NG is on RFP to India, Brazil, Norway and Denmark and on RFI to Holland. The Gripen 39C is in another 5 or so tenders. Then there’s marketing towards another 10 interested countries. At a meeting in Sweden some weeks ago there was 23 countries present.

    Gripen NG is cheaper than 39C much in part cos of further use of COTS and a much cheaper engine, and would cost about 40-45 million USD. The current jet cost around 50m to the SwAF.

    in reply to: Rafale news III: the return of the revenge #2492283
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    What Lordassap means with “5th generation” architecture is a modulare computer hosting the software for most systems instead of multiple distributed computers for dedicated tasks. Gripen features the MACS (Modulare Airborne Computer System) consisting of the 3 D96 processors with 266 MHz each. Don’t know what the MACS controls in total however.

    Just looked it up for the new EWS. Saab is working on a new EWS designated MIDAS (Multifucntion Defensive Avionics System) whose RWR/ECM antennas are based on AESA technology and which is supposed to integrate a new AESA radar as well. First deliveries were planed for 2013 to Flygvapnet, as retrofit for existing aircraft. This info is from early 2005 or even earlier and I haven’t read/heared anything more updated about it since then.

    All this is outdated info dating pre-2000. Which is a big problem when you want to get out Gripen news… it’s lots of outdated info on the web.

    JAS 39C/D have completely new computers. Gripen no longer use MACS and MIDAS is no longer a project. some info from 2007 and earlier is also not quite up to date as Saab acquired Ericsson MW and took the Radar and EWS work into Saab which has helped to reform the programs.

    Mercury was signed for the Gripen in 1997 under a licensing and production contract for radar signalprocessing and a new parallel computer architecture using 5x266Mhz PowerPC based COTS computers on RACE+ architecture over five redundant 1553 buses and a number of optical and seriallinks.

    (MACS PPC740s first used on 39A replaced the D80E (in ’99) which in turn had replaced the D80 (in ’95) of the first jets, and then the COTS system from Mercury replaced the MACS starting with Batch 3 deliveries (in 2003) really driven from higher radar and EWS processing demands while still keeping costs down…)

    in reply to: Rafale news III: the return of the revenge #2492366
    signatory
    Participant

    Thanks Tmor for that pic.

    For the record, I don’t see all this as a competition and have alot of respect for Rafale program and French engineers. One example is the work we do together on Neuron which I see as a good way to use the most of European R&D capability that looks beyond national protectionism. Also French members on forums often provide sources to their news too so I don’t mind that some of them at times get enthusiastic about their jet and perhaps have not always updated info about Gripen + I have no problems accepting Gripen is not always best at everything. It’s just a weapon… Most guys here that I am interested in listening to have English as a second language so often it’s easier to just provide a source which in the end adds substance and quality to submitted posts. I’m not gonna start a Gripen thread.. and only post the following because I was asked about it. 😎

    Sig i TOTALY agree with you, i know how respected Sweedish EMC capabilties are, perhaps top in Western Europe or close but tell me, does the Gripen DEMO posseses this 5ht technology core architecture and similar AESA systems for its ECMs?.

    Well I’m no architech-nerd and don’t know what 5th Gen core Arch is supposed to be… but Saab is competing with F-35 and have accelerated development in that area but a operational time frame depends on export success. The 39C of today is not exactly “old tech” but in short the Gripen DEMO or Test Aircraft 39-7 as it’s actually named flight tests the new engine and airframe but will during winter be outfitted with new system architecure and new sensors such as a AESA. Customer demonstrations will then happen during the summer 2009. I think this is when we can start to get some feedback.

    The other Test jets most significantly 39-6 is for a while now flying some of the new architecure as is the avionics rigs outfitted with new h/w and s/w as it’s developed. More info pasted below. M-AESA will definitely be used for ECM and supression as well as communication together with a broadband uhf video link and satcom though this is nothing new in regards to the Gripen development program which often mistakenly is viewed as “Gripen Demo” vs “old program”… no, Gripen Demo is continued evolvement of the gripen program and while Saab has outlined very long planning the work is addressed towards urgent requirement (months), near requirement (3 year plans) and 9 year plans (3x3yr) So it’s not clear when say a operational AESA will be on Gripen but doesn’t have to be decided until ~2 years before it needs to be fielded.

    Operationally speaking, the Gripens will from 2009 adopt the system version 19 which adds new ground tracking and mapping modes in the radar, independant system with command and control functions to the back-seat, the Helmet Mounted Display w/Night Vision and EO tracker, the IRIS-T and Link-16. It’s essentially the system that took part in the Swiss trials. (Those jets were taken from the IO&T unit) What version 20 to be fielded 2012 will contain is under negotiation depending om how the evolving development succeeds. That quickly sums up where they are at…

    SWEDISH AESA RADAR UNDERTAKES FIRST FLIGHT TRIALS
    Saab (formerly Ericsson) Microwave Systems reports that it undertook the first flight trials of a new demonstrator radar for Gripen in September 2007. The tests, performed from a Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules transport aircraft with the radar mounted backwards on the loading ramp, generated data that the company describes as “world-unique”.

    The active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar is a new development, building on technology from the current PS-05/A radar of the Gripen. Known within the company as NORA III (derived from the phrase ‘Not Only a RAdar’), the new radar uses a Saab-specified AESA antenna consisting of approximately 1,000 elements built by Raytheon.

    “As far as we know, this is the first data collection from a fighter radar using multi-channel AESA technology [that] simultaneously has one receiver channel per sub-aperture,” says Jonas Branzell, programme manager for airborne radar at Saab Microwave Systems. “The data received is irreplaceable with regard to development of the radars of the future and their signal-processing algorithms.”

    During earlier ground tests, several Gripens were used as radar targets. In addition, both airborne- and land-based jamming were tested. According to Saab, the trials gave good results in the following modes: long-range target detection and tracking; search and track in highly manoeuvrable multi-target scenarios; rapid track initiation/alert; passive detection; and multiple jammer suppression.

    Saab says these flight trials have demonstrated that an AESA radar, using one channel per sub-aperture, gives better sidelobe suppression than a monopulse system. According to the company, its radar detects targets in more directions and at lower speeds than any earlier known AESA radar.

    Saab also maintains that ground clutter problems have been reduced in this new system: an ordinary AESA only uses distance and speed to separate targets from clutter, but tests with a multi-channel AESA, using spatially separated sub-apertures in two dimensions (elevation and azimuth), are claimed to give better ground clutter suppression.

    The radar flight trials were originally intended to use a Viggen fighter as the platform but, following the latter’s withdrawal from service, the C-130 Hercules was selected. According to Saab’s Branzell, this had only a minor impact on the test results. “The radar being directed backwards had no impact on the clutter tests. It is only a mirror compared to the normal case,” he says.

    Branzell adds that the test made use of different waveforms, pulse frequencies and tapers, in part to compensate for the lower speed range of the C-130. Source

    An entirely new avionics architecture will empower Gripen NG

    Away from the Gripen Demo aircraft there
    is a second strand in future Gripen technology
    work now underway. An avionics
    design and development team will deliver
    an entirely new avionics architecture
    for Gripen NG. With a combination of
    advanced hardware and a wide-ranging
    re-appraisal of how an avionics system
    functions, the improvements to Gripen NG
    will be revolutionary.

    Full Article on PDF

    in reply to: Rafale news III: the return of the revenge #2493281
    signatory
    Participant

    signatory,

    I don’t doubt a second that gripen’s EW suit is good, but from my personnal opinion when you are able to launch several satellites to feed SPECTRA plus developping a high speed laser datalink with satellites (a world first-see article and video above about LOLA), It is an indicator of the work and energy dedicated to spectra and without disrespect;), such ressources are out of sweeden financial reach.

    Eh perhaps. I tend to talk about capability that exists or is soon to be fielded and the rest I really don’t care too much about. I could blah blah about the R&D programs but I don’t feel the need to do so. Saab has a proven cutting edge capability in the air defense field with significant sales in AEW&C, Sigint and EWS not to mention 4 Gripen export customers and is even selling radars to the French Air Force (Giraffe AMB) despite a strong French industry in that area. Sweden don’t spend money building helicopters, carrier or tanks instead the R&D is put into smart solutions to deal with bigger threats. That’s why the datalinks, EW and s/w and is so highly developed.

    in reply to: Rafale news III: the return of the revenge #2493359
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    Participant

    I think that the work done on rafale EW is a way to provide an “assymetric” advantage against current and futur threats. Indeed on paper none of the SU, MIG, EF, Gripen NG, SH, rafale…have an unfair advantage against each others meaning a high risk in case of a real fight…

    Well the operational Gripens is today using continuosly updated threat libraries, active/passive jammer, blah blah all that today and the SwAF did say during Red Flag 08-3 they could fly in and bomb targets without the SAM systems OR enemy red air units having any effect on them. I expect Gripen and other modern jets like Rafale to receive more capability in this area over time and it’s one area they spend alot of money on for the Gripen atm. It’s very good today and will only get better.

    • Electronic Warfare System 39
    • Radar warner receiver, RWR
    • Gives information about threats around the aircraft
    • Position and type
    • Type based on stored threat library
    • Automatic countermeasures possible
    • Performance: CLASSIFIED
    • Jammer
    • Manual, semi automatic or automatic activation
    • Passive or active jamming
    • Support system for review after landing
    • EW Tools
    • PE

    Source Gripen ISTAR

    I could write more but this is the Rafale thread 🙂

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495373
    signatory
    Participant

    The aircraft is in the context of this discussion, for several reasons.

    Many opinions about russian aircraft by F-22 fanboys assert and the pilot is obviously a F-15 fan boy, tht the cobra and having a better turn rate is of no use in combat, he is giving some assertions that are not rue for the newer Su-35BM

    But the SU-35BM won`t lose so much speed and altitude as the Su-30MKI thanks to newer engines and the deletion of the secont seat and canards

    Still dont care. Funny you hit out at f-15/22 fanboys while you’re the one arguing for a SU-35BM that is years from (if ever) operational service.

    The Pilot was actually kind in his remarks on the sukhoi. He could have gone into more negative factors.

    in reply to: F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag #2495398
    signatory
    Participant

    Who cares abt SU-35 in the context of this subject?

    No one is even flying that jet operationally.

    in reply to: Why can't UK build it's own aircraft? #2497480
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    Participant

    This cockpit is worse than M2K-5 cockpit of early 90s. The advantage of Sweden is that so few aircraft are ordered that is easily to implement modernization. dome firms have more test beds.

    Eh, the M2K-5 was a tad more modern and not a evolving upgrade on a 1960s design like the Viggen. The ISSUE was that Saab had used development for the Gripen that even earlier had become operative on Viggen aircraft. From the close coupled delta-canard design in the 1960s to the common sensor and datalink picture in the cockpit. And that’s why it’s simply ridiculous to see some bitter island boys over here deliver outrageous claims without any credible sources what so ever that Saab for some reason suddenly had to hold hands with BAe on the design. What they needed was help on marketing.

    http://i37.tinypic.com/1jaryg.jpg
    Gripen Early batch

    http://i37.tinypic.com/rk0qah.jpg
    Gripen 1990s+, late batch 2 and 39C

    http://i33.tinypic.com/o74pr6.jpg
    Gripen NG concept

    The Mirage 2000-5 cockpit of 1990s does otoh still look more modern than the Eurofighter cockpit of today and definitely more so than the early EF2000 version.

    http://i35.tinypic.com/33wb386.jpg
    EF2K

    in reply to: Why can't UK build it's own aircraft? #2497503
    signatory
    Participant

    Viggen in the 90s

    http://i36.tinypic.com/9sf3ua.jpg

    Saab has always been on top. Gripen is a continuing success story on a long legacy of cutting edge fighters and no bitter island boys will change that.

    in reply to: Rafale news III: the return of the revenge #2497636
    signatory
    Participant

    About Meteor. This is from 2007, and lists Swedish plans to get the missile from 2015. The blue bar is what is ordered and green need to be ordered. I don’t have updated info but it’s likely the same status today. They did otoh order pre-series units this year but that’s part of full integration.

    http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7980/meteorswexh5.th.jpghttp://img507.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif

    Also, India and Australia is getting classified information about Meteor from Sweden, decided earlier this month. Not sure why they went through Sweden but that’s what they did.

    Ps. thanks to the French guys posting in this thread, appreciate getting translated information that otherwise only come in French language and tbh my French has never been any good 😎

    in reply to: Why can't UK build it's own aircraft? #2498164
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    Participant

    BAe’s time on Gripen was in large between 1995-2004 for the NATO compatible 39C but it was Cobham who did the most important work with the IFR. BAe had no involvement on the airframe design and really nothing on avionics. Most of the avionics on Gripen including the electronic flight control system had already been flown on Viggen either for the tests or operative functionality. When Saab at rare times sought consultative advice on software it was always from Americans, Italians or even the Dutch. And the Eurofighter is essentially a Italian/German design so obviously Scorpion is a nationalist fanboy seriously bitter about not having his own national fighter jet design to cheer on. It’s just ridiculous to watch and further degrades the quality of this forum.

Viewing 15 posts - 121 through 135 (of 457 total)