AndyGAndy – the Spitfire ‘recreations’ we see by and large conform to the build standard and drawings originally produced by Supermarine /Vickers Supermarine. The German Flug Werke recreations do not conform to the original FW drawings in a number of ways. Therefore they are not the genuine article or faithful replicas.
Not suggesting they are the absolute genuine article, however as close as you are likely to get within the realms of practicality and also the limitations placed upon them by the German regs. ie one example, there is a casting in the spar web section which has a hole for a machine gun to reside which I understand the German authorities wouldn’t allow to be replicated as it would then be ‘possible’ to fit guns, which they aren’t allowed. If you want guns on a FlugWerk you can however fit a stubby barrel in these locations.
Still, much as I like them a modern ‘thin but robust’ provenance Spitfire is a brand new airframe. Had full manufacturing drawings been available to FW, then they may have been judged in the same light.
Under the circumstances I think faithful is a reasonable description. An Australian kit plane Spitfire home built, however nice a machine is not even close to faithful. (Shall we start an anorak thread on what ‘faithful’ means?;) )
I think we’ll all enjoy them when we finally see them in the air.
AndyGI’ve seen a FW190 fly within the last few years. It looked great.
It, IMHO has, as much provenance as some of the more recent Spitfire ‘recreations/restorations’ flying today.
I look forward to seeing the Duxford resident take to the skies in blighty too one day soon.
AndyGWhen the Forth Bridge a Victorian masterpiece of engineering, was taken over by the Rail Track Scotland, maintenance stopped.
It then degraded to such an extent that a major refurbishment costing 110 million was required to pull it back from the edge. It wasn’t just coating failure, serious corrsion had taken a good hold.
Thats what happens when national treasures fall into the wrong hands.
A massive Bonus for the CEO and dividend for shareholders are more important than anything else.
Thats why maintenance on Oil Platforms in the North Sea sold off by majors and bought over by small independant operators leaves a LOT to be desired.
Perhaps Victory could be spruced up with a Red Bull logo or two?
AndyGA lot of people bang on about how ‘complex’ sleeve valve engines are.
Is this really myth or reality?
For example, IIRC the Hercules developed into a very reliable transport engine with a much higher TBO than the Merlin equivalent.
Whilst sleeve valve engines outwardly might appear ‘complicated’ due to a percieved higher parts count, the sleeve drive (per cylinder) consists of a pair of reduction gears driving a rotating crank with ball end that reciprocates the sleeve up and down and with an ocillating rotation. A completely different load case on these components than poppet valve gear, possibly much less onerous.
Before casting this judgement in stone that a sleeve drive is ‘complex’ and somehow fussy, at the end of the day, it’s just a reduction gearbox with a couple of gear meshes. Rotating gears are pretty robust in many ways that poppet valves, camshafts, rockers, burnt valve seats, broken valve springs etc are not.
Whilst sleeve wear was a problem in the early days, it was solved.
Is the later Sabre such a delicate beast?
I spoke to to the Chairman of the Napier Society at Duxford some years ago. (if that is the correct name of it, I forget now) We spoke about the Sabre and specifically the Sabre in KWs Mk V. He said that they were very keen to offer KW assistance with the re-build of the engine from the knowledge pool of the engineers still alive at that time who were originally involved with the design of the engine. He appeared very dissapointed that their offer was not taken up and he was sad that the knowledge may eventually be lost as these old boys ‘moved on’.
How many Hercules engines died through failure of this sleeve drive arrangement?
Anyone with real world sleeve valve experience out there to contribute as to how complex and unrealiable a sleeve valve really is? Mr Beaufighter perhaps?
Anyone have an idea what components were causing trouble with the RN Centaurus engine in the Sea Fury in recent times?
Also: Anyone have a sectional view through the torque balance mechanism in the Sabre, which provided equal tooth pressure to all the gear meshes in the reduction gear at the two cranks input? (I have seen all the perspective cut aways, from which its operation is not too clear)
AndyGA trifle politically sensitive even today for a current or former agent of the US to admit to aerial surveilance during the Falklands conflict to provide assistance for the Brits. Can’t say that would help the North/South American relations greatly at the moment.
As to an answer, you’ve more chance of one of our NU LAbour ‘friends’ holding their hands up and stating that the whole nasty WOMD business was just a concocted ruse to open up Iraq’s oil fields and to hell with the consequences.
It’s a funny old world we live in, all is not always quite what it appears at first reading.
AndyGIndian Air Force fit.
Mark
Thanks.
Is this an anomaly to Griffon highback spits supplied only to India?
AndyGAndy,
I don’t have them to hand at the moment, but it mentions the larger rudder with split trim/anti-balance tab as fitted to later low back XIV’s & the MKXVIII in the MKXIV pilots notes. (I can’t remember the Mod number – I’m sure Mark12 will tell us).
Looking at photos of early MKXVIII’s and early low back XIV’s, they appeared to have the earlier narrow chord rudder fitted.
SM832 actually has the larger chord rudder with anti-balance tab fitted (as MV293 does), whilst RN201 has the earlier type .
According to Charlie Brown, the later type gives your legs a real workout during aerobatics, as the anti-balance tab was designed to fight the pilots rudder inputs to help improve the directional stability during dives on the low back machines.
Cheers
Paul
Your absolutely correct SM832 as a high back does have the broader chord rudder. ******.
The BBMF XIXs’ don’t either.
There I was years ago thinking at last I am an expert on Spitfire rudder profiles and SM832 is at odds with the previous advise!
Perhaps MK 12 can advise why SM832 as a high back has the same broader chord rudder that its low back contemporaries have?
AndyGI never noticed before until someone on here pointed it out, but TFC Spitfire XIV MV293/G-SPIT has a MkXVIII rudder….
I asked this question on here some years ago and the answer back was MV293 is a low back XIV and normally has an even larger rudder than for example SM832 (bigger horn balance and larger chord to offset loss of fuselage area with the low back IIRC) which has a high back. RN201 also has the same rudder as SM832 and is a high back.
Perhaps our Spitfire chaps can clarify if the XIV low backs have a retro fitted XVIII rudder or if it was first introduced on the XIV?
AndyGFollowing a brief search I managed to locate one in the american air museum in Duxford 😀
AndyGIf you don’t like the way the EU is going and feel that the less than Democratic nature of the enforced Superstate troubles you, our traditions and the ability to fly our aeroplanes, then have your say here. Tell a friend too.
AndyGThere isnt much that hasnt been mastered by the support industry for Spitfires these days!
Most of the electrical equipment and instrumentation is common to other aircraft, and can be found in aircraft as diverse as the Auster and Vulcan! The only thing that hasnt been manufactured that I can think of is Undercarriage indicator lamps.
There are a few other things that havent been covered – notably the undercarriage selector, undercarriage legs, and undercarriage locks. It may only be a matter of time however!
Thanks Bruce,
Again assuming that money is no object and taking the undergarriage legs and pintels as examples: Probably not particularly challenging to re-manufacture these days, however what is the position with regard to certification for use in an aeroplane by the CAA etc if made by a competant engineering company who doesn’t necessarily make aviation components?
AndyGAndy,
I take your point on board.
However, in this case there has been no merging of threads, although, it has, of course happened in the past.
I would suggest that if you did start such a thread, it would soon be jumped on by the naysayers!
Bruce
Ehh??
Following a brief search, the word “merged” was located in the title of this thread….. 😀
Yes, but at least then the “naysayers” could then be directed legitimately to the appropriate thread to rock back and forth in their “Parker Knolls” amongst fellow ‘expert’ doomsters without distracting the XH558 worshippers!
AndyGOk this thread is an emotional topic which is understandable. You can post your comments regarding the Vulcan freely on here,however we continue to slide into personal insults and squabbles which frankly drag both this thread and its members down!
Bruce made mention of it once already and I will add to his post by once again reminding everyone that personal squabbles are not to be posted on the public forum. We have the use of private messaging to send a message between partys if they want to argue something.
come on gents, this is a good topic to have and I would hate to see it become locked do to squabbling between members.
Peter Moderator.
Can I suggest that moderators stop taking the liberty of ‘merging’ threads, a facet of thsi forum in recent times which has become a recurring (and annoying IMHO) theme.
That way if a patron wishes to start for example a “XH558 Appreciation thread” then those who have no interest in being associated with some of the inconsiderate and ill thought out ramblings which have frequently punctuated this thread, have an outlet free from such nonsense.
Thank you
AndyGWhat is the grey fuselage section on the trailer next to the MK22 fuselage?
It looks like a Shack MR2 nose? (36.jpg)
AndyGRoxeth, from reading the 57 O.T.U. ORB it seems that the whole period from September 1941 to April ’42 was terrible for weather, none more so than on ‘Black Friday’ early December ’41 when they lost seven aircraft after a sudden snowstorm hit the area before the controller could get everybody down.
Andy, unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of another set of cowls though even if we did she’s in the earlier scheme which would require replacement of the Dark Earth with Ocean Grey, needless to say the painter wouldn’t be chuffed if we started messing with ‘his paint’ 😉
As for parts replacement – original spars, we found doodles on them when we removed the skins on one, seems that the factory/repair unit workers had some time on their hands!
Skins, while some were replaced we still retained more than 50% all round I should think.
Parts-wise what was missing from ‘factory-fresh’ condition was acquired/fabricated and incorporated, very few original parts had to be replaced though apart from the canopy and screen which were the main items.
Tom
Many thanks for that Tom.
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