SabreAceVictor confirms, that a clean Su-27 (the Su-30 is heavier we speak of) with max fuel can reach 4000 km in a high (transfer) profil.
This is completely correct. Ferry range of the Su-27 was close to 4000 km. The Su-30 variants have increased internal fuel and a more streamlined two seater configuration and an improved engine for ranges a little bit higher. The Su-30MKI has better aerodynamics for higher lift too.
The smaller wing-area 46:62 sqm gave the Rafale an advantage in th
You also have to take into count the aspect ratio and drag from that large unswept wing. Wingloading also has it’s drawbacks. I’m pretty surprised that despite being a delta, the Rafale’s wingloading is not too much lower than the Flanker’s and we are’nt even counting it’s LEX and canard areas!
external tanks of the Rafale give it more frontal area, when the 2 CFTs do little harm in this. The Su-30 is a bigger ac and its frontal-area is not as small as the Rafale. The weapons-load generate a lot of drag too. But let us estimate, the Russian built weapons were refined in this, like their western counterparts. A Rafale can drop empty tanks to reduce drag.
This all aside, the Su-30 range has to be less, than the much lighter Su-27 with the same amount of internal fuel nearly.
None of the above is supporting your argument. The Rafale is no where near the Flankers in range, pure and simple.
SabreAcethe longest range fighter”????
Just some simple calculations:
Rafale B against Su-30 MKM
9,8 to – empty equipped – 18,8 to
24,5 to – MTOW – 38,8 to
14,7 to – load – 20 to
60 % ratio 52 %
~ 10 to – max fuel load ~ 10 to
~ 11700 l ~ 12700 l
5100 l – intern – 12700 l
6600 l – extern – –
2 CFTs and 3 ETssmaller less drag bigger more drag
extern more drag intern less drag
drop extern tanks when empty, it is better
533 kg/qm – wing load MTOW – 616 kg/qm
thrust
10 to dry – 0,41 -MTOW- 16,2 to dry 0,42
15 to wet – 0,61 -MTOW- 25 to wet 0,64
at 11 to -LWFL = 0,9 – 1,36 Rafale B
at 20 to -LWFL = 0,81 – 1,25 Su-30 MKM
Burning fuel the Rafale gets betterThe Rafale B has 92 % of the fuel of Su-30 MKM and
62 % dry thrust and 60 % wet
this translates in 33 % better range estimate for RafaleRafale with 100 % intern (~5100 l) and
Su-30 with 60 % intern (~7600 l)
gives the Rafale still an advantage of ~ 7 %+ in rangeThe smaller Rafale is a much smarter solution.
The Su-30 is cheaper to buy, but in day to day operations?
At least it burns more fuel per mission.
MiG-21 MF : 9 to – 2,2 to fuel 4 to dry – 6,6 to wet = 1 hour sortie-time
Su-30 MKM: 26 to – 6 to fuel 16,2 to dry – 25 to wet = 4,5 hour sortie-time
25 % better SFC for AL-31F in mind, physics are strechted behind imaginations.
Reading OKB SUKHOI, the 4,5 h covers ~3000 km in transfer profile = 666,7 km/h
left 2 tons fuel per hour (sfc <0,8) 16,2 to dry. For start-up and climb out ~ 1 ton
of fuel is burnt.
~ 5200 km 7 hours in transfer profile = 743 km/h
All the data given are correct. But most of them have nothing to do with daytime-operations or a real mission.
Please spare me. You cannot compare a 3 Drop Tank configuration or a draggy CFT configuration here. Thrust is also not a factor of fuel efficiency or sfc. The Rafale was never designed to be a long range fighter like the Su-30 and it simply is’nt. Look up the number of range records the Su-27 set.
Aerodynamics of an aircraft do count whether it’s big or not. The Su-30 has superior aerodynamics. The prototype acheived a L/D ratio of 12. The Su-30 never needs to carry drop tanks.
All the data given are correct. But most of them have nothing to do with daytime-operations or a real mission.
How does it being day or night affect the range? And just how do you know it’s not for a ‘real’ mission.
SabreAcenow that the new mods are likely to spare the rest of us from their pointless flame posts
And poorly written, poorly spelt political garbage too. 😀
Would’nt it be amusing if crobato is forced to delete his own posts? 😀
SabreAceNah, we should congradulate plawolf too. Not one spelling mistake and almost perfect grammar this time! Next time, he should go beyond one sentance. 😀
SabreAceThis is the kind of language mr.crobato continues to use
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=345802#post345802
The only retard is you, who cannot accept factory information and relies on a Hindu newspaper
I hope the webmaster has taken note.
SabreAceYou know something! The people at ACIG are laughing their a$$ out looking at this place
I know. Have you noticed the massive ****ing irony in all this?
SabreAceThe first one’s an F-4! 😎
SabreAceDid’nt crobato drop out? Does’nt that make google mod? google’s cool. 😎
Also, glad that there are no CDF members selected here.
Why?
SabreAceI voted for someone else, because the number one is obvious
You won’t believe how long I was waiting for someone to say that (the obvious) 😀
Mathematics people! 😀
Ya, that’s obvious, since the whole MOD idea came on the forums, The Indians stopped flamming Pak/Chinese Threads ‘OVERNIGHT’, you dont want me to show that..many regualar indians who posted ‘mostly’ on pakistani/chinese threads for ‘obvious’ reasons went behind the scenes, proly telling all there mates to lets go and vote for Harry….who himself was a flamer/racist once upon a time (go read old posts, no proof needs to be given)..but other 2 mods would keep that in check.
..and kind of funny isnt it…one indians points finger at a member for not being happy with ‘democracy’ and ‘free’ elections..and then you have another indian right below saying quite the opposite.
Yeah and according to xanadu, Arthur is racist and anti india. Please. If you look around, perhaps you’d notice that your post was the first Indiavspak thing in this thread. I think everyone would be unanimous in appreciation if you kept your pathetic little tantrums to yourself. It’s really easy you know? Follow forum rules or stick to your turdy forums. No one is asking you to stay.
Arthur has made a very good point point in his last post..infact that’s all it should be really about..cut out the personal and typical India VS Rest of the World flames.
I don’t think that’s what Arthur said or meant so please stop trying to create a little spark here. I do hope that the new mods make quick work of forum trash such as yourself. You really should be asking yourself about when you will ever get a clue on aviation instead of who the next mod will be?
SabreAceTo be honest, I don’t like the whole mods idea but it does’nt warrant a new thread to waste everybody’s time. If PLA does’nt respect the forum opinion, why should he stick around any longer? He has his pakdef et al.
What’s the big deal about being mod anyway? You get to modify, move around and delete other’s posts and that’s it. It aint a prestige issue like some think.
SabreAceMaybe I was a bit harsh but PLA should learn to respect the board’s opinions. I’m sure we all have our own little set of reservations but don’t have to ruin everyone’s fun by crying like a baby about it, especially if it were someone like PLA who does nothing but bring in a negative atmosphere.
I look at the numbers of PLA’s posts
LoL, represents a ton of flame and spam. Can count aviation related ones on one finger. The same guy has come in with multiple ids, once as a woman, and been thrown out.
SabreAceTo keep the range-levels as advertised, some extra fuel have to squeezed in.
I am not surprised to see in the near future the Su-30 with external tanks.
Oh please, the Su-30 is the longest ranged fighter in the world by far. Do you even know it’s internal fuel capacity? 10,000 kg is the equivalent of more than 2 Rafales. The Al-31FP is also far from a badly maintained and derated RD-33. A MiG-21 itself could do close to an hour’s sortie.
To confirm the Su-30’s endurance of 4.5 hrs at little over 4500 kg of internal fuel (less than 60%), check the irukutk website.
Other arguments simply make no sense. Does anyone think that the little fuel squeezed into the tail (what a weird place to put it) would make any major difference to the already super range at all? Why would they even do it? Is it even true, proven?
SabreAceI personally like SOC best over Arthur but I don’t create a new thread about it.
PLA, your opinion does’nt count. You’re not exactly a regular on this board and are generally considered a crappy flamer. Did it ever occur to you that the webmaster let types like to even vote? Consider his generosity and please stop wasting our time with your garbage.
Thank you.
SabreAceI couldn’t find anyone saying anything about Ayesha Siddiqha that at ACIG.
From the ACIG PAF thread,(admins please forgive me for the cut n’ paste)
————————————————————————-
rkam
Rainbow
Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 3
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:34 pm Post subject:
——————————————————————————–
Saleem Hatoum wrote:
Yes, there is a difference between operational aircrafts and the aircrafts which are going through regular maintainance, so, the figure of 32 aircrafts is true.
Dr. Ayesha has NO access to any “insiders” in armed forces of Pakistan rather her students have bluntly said that she herself admitted to them in class that ISPR and MoD have not given her any access to any military information. There few other people in Pakistani media who can be attributed to have good knowledge of the armed forces which includes Aroosa Alam, Asad Rizvi and Pakdef.info
rkam wrote:
It is strange that Ayesha would be writing such “trash” in a newspaper like the Friday Times, since that paper is strongly supportive of the Musharaff regime, and have backed him 200% on his economic and foreign policy decisions to date. Moreover, they have easilly assembled the strongest team of foreign policy-defence commentators of any of the Pakistani press. As I mentioned, there were articles in different newspapers, including the nation and dawn, about the readiness of the F16s and the numbers of F16s, which makes it more difficult to casually dismiss her as an incompetent or fraudulent columnist.
———————————————————
SabreAce had no interest in this thread other than to throw in a few digs.
It would be more interesting if it were’nt surrounded by so much propoganda. My question simply is if the pakistanis don’t consider dr.siddiqui to be reliable, why take anything seriously now?
That is what posters like Wolverine or SabreAce tell us
No, a balanced view would simply be nicer and not a pain to read.
Someone made an interesting comment towards the J-10. What’s interesting is that could be Eurofighter-class with a single engine. Both the typhoon and rafale try to match heavier fighters but fall short and end up costing much more than traditional single engined light fighters.
SabreAceCould you please post that pic for us?
Sign In
