SabreAceSo 500 hours during a 3 year stint with an F-16 sqd is quite normal! Where did you come up with 70 hours a year!? Can you actually ad up!?
No actually he’s quite right. F-16.net says
F-16.net: How long have you flown the Viper and how many hours do you have on the F-16?
S/L. Mazhar: I have been flying the viper since 1990. But there was a break of 2 1/2 years in between when I did a tenure as a Flight Instructor in PAF Academy. Due to some restrictions, we do not fly as much as USAF or Turkish AF pilots do,therefore I only have about 500 Hrs on the F-16.
Do the math. :rolleyes:
They fly the aircraft of assigned sqdrns and that does’nt mean that they fly different types.
SabreAceEncyclopedia of Air Warfare, janes etc tend to equate the PAF with honour andprofessionalism,
No it does’nt, I hope that I don’t have to cut and paste the extracts here?
Having said that, it’s not that the PAF is not a professional airforce. They seem to take their airforce very seriously and one can appreciate that. But the fact is that the IAF outclasses them in every way and it’s silly to argue otherwise.
Wolverine, sharmaji, PLA, et al, you people seem to be adding a new factor of nonsense logic here. Where did you guys get the idea that PAF pilots fly multiple types and IAF pilots fly only one? As in each airforce, there’s a level of progression. For example, an IAF pilot would go from a MiG-21 to a MiG-23 to a MiG-29 to an Su-30 over several years and a PAF pilot would go from F-7 to F-16 or Mirage. They will fly the aircraft in the squadrons they are assigned to.
SabreAceOriginally posted by phrozenflame
See those kind of stupid remarks by stupid ppl create problems here, we dont compare it with f-22, nor sd-10 is said to be the best, its you and your stupid mentallity, its not your fault really, when the environment in which u’r grown up is like that, what can one say.
Nope, it was h177 who said it and you know it. Here are some other beautiful pieces from your side which does’nt stop,
1.Pakistan obtained Tomahawk missiles and sent them to China.
2.PAF F-16s fired live sparrows against F-7s which evaded them.
3.PAF pilots are flying J-10s.
4.The PAF can destroy all arab forces in 48 hrs (another one from h177)
5.The PAF is looking to buy the Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen and what not?
Never thought free entertainment would be this good. Thank you. 😀
SabreAceIt’s a lousy combo. The F/A-18E pilots will get jealous of their Su-30 counterparts are start fighting with them. Eventually, there’d be an unofficial DACT competition with live rounds and as expected, all F/A-18s would be shot down and the result is that Malaysia looses much of it’s fleet. And why would an Su-30 pilot ever want to be seen with a hornet pilot? 😀
SabreAceOriginally posted by aerospacetech
50km?Sukhoi quote a launch range of 50km for the baseline R-77 in their Su-30MK brochure.
That’s bullcrap. The brochure says that the R-77’s max range is 80 km.
SabreAceThat f22 is missile boat… Made in China. You are that simple that you start comparing boats with planes.
It sure is. 😀
(PS Even the Jiangwei F22T is a frigate, not a missile boat) 😀 😀
SabreAceWill find another source confirming teh numbers as 40 Hueys and 40 Cobras, if you actually had some knowledge about aviation and was genuinely interested in aircraft rather then just flaming you would realised that production of the Huey and the AH-1F stopped years ago, so the time involved in manufacture would be ZERO, they would come from surplus stocks!
All that but I still don’t see any proof for 40 AH-1Fs nay, even contracts being signed. 😀
LOST!? We shout down more plans of yours then you did of ours! EVERY SOURCE IN EXISTANCE CONFIRMS THIS!
Yeah you “shouted” a lot for sure. 😀
Would every source in “existance” include the Encyclopedia of Airwarfare, Jane’s Airforces of the World, Fighter planes of the 20th century, World Airpower journal not to mention the History channel and articles by Jon lake? 😀
I know what pakistan’s claims are. Figuratively speaking, they put any country’s claims to shame. Remember the 1000s of Su-24s shot down over Afghanistan? That claim actually appeared in a frontline mag!! Even if those claims were taken seriously, you’re looking for air superiority and objectives acheived, not numbers that are good for public consumption.
Who knows? Maybe the PAF’s grandiose claims were true? But then, why does almost every source including WAPJ associate the PAF with the word “propoganda?” over and over again?
Finally, it’s not “my” “plans”. 😀
can pots ALOT of article on IAF’s accident rate and low flying hours!
Hahahahahahahaha. IAF has low flying hrs? 😀
Their sortie rate is perhaps the second highest on the planet. Even quantitiy wise, the PAF is getting worse, suffering 11 crashes in 2003 wheras the IAF for being 3-4 times the size and having 4.5 times the flying hrs, suffered 13 crashes.
Read this. And don’t whine about it being a BR-nazi-racist-RSS whatever article because those figures are sourced from your own guys like the one by Ayaz Ahmed khan.
Nice try with teh F-16 source, but that only gives the pilot’s F-16 hours, he has flown on many other PAF types, so the 500 hours is just on the F-16, you have not proven anything!
Read carefully you fool. He’s been flying F-16s from 1990 and explicitly says that he has only 500 hrs on that type. Don’t try to run away from reality that your PAF has both low flying time and hence, very high attrition. When you have problems, you find ways to solve them, not pretend that they don’t exist.
According to Mushaf Ali Mir and the current air cheif, the PAF’s attrition stood at 2/ 10000 hrs for the year 2002 where 14 crashes occured (according to Babriet site on tripod). That would mean 70000 flying hrs annually for the PAF. The IAF logged over 300K three years ago.
Agosta can fire Exocet and the Daphnes are now being used only for training……..
Another shot in the foot eh? If daphnes are only used for training, that does’nt speak well about the physical size of of your sub fleet. And you have the audacity to claim that it’s better than India’s. ROFLMAO. 😀
If teh Marine pilots prefer TOW I think the Pakistani pilots may do too! Anyway, I would take there word over yours!
Where’s the source for Marine pilots being happier with the TOW over Hellfire?
SabreAceOriginally posted by Arthur
Little snaps, here and there. Hardly anything specific and definately not well-organised. Looking for something in particulair?
It does’nt matter. Tell us everything you know.
SabreAce[b] No source or proof for claims of 40 additional AH-1Fs. Where is it? I asked decently.
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/ai…cbj11-sasia.pdf[b]
Thank you but it does’nt confirm any solid contract signing. http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/aid/fy2004/cbj11-sasia.pdf says that Huey and Cobra helicopters are planned for 2003. What about the nos?
Let’s not forget one more thing that’s obvious ie the time it takes to manufacture so many choppers.
Look under equipment realesed to Pakistan under Brownamendment, I am sure you can search for it rather then medoing it for you!
Found it. Thanks.
Er!? Then why have you not wiped out teh PAF!?
If war were to come, what makes you think that would’nt do it in minimal time? Last few times you both clashed, you were far better equipped and still lost. Apart from the full AAM and multirole inventory, the Cyrano-IIs and NASSARs capabilties were something the IAF did’nt get until their MiG-23s arrived. You even go to DACT with British Hunters.
3 Agosta 90Bs, 50 Al Khalids a year, 60+ F-7PGs, Brandnew Al Thala IFVs, order for 4 new battleships from China, 4 CN-235s count for “nothing”
The PG is a WVR only Mig-21 clone that does’nt even incorporate changes to the cockpit of an F-7P. You call this significant when compared to aircraft acquired by India which incorporate groundbreaking concepts?
Battleships? ROTFL. I’ll add this to my list. The Battle ship is long phased out buddy! But it does’nt matter to pakistan does it? 😀
50 Alkhalids that have’nt been delivered and a few APCs are supposed to count for something? Just make it simple and search the SIPRI and UN databases for military acquistions. It’s easy.
Er can you provide proof of this!? A recent AFM article putPAF hours at 220 a year! IAF attrition rate has always beenworse then the PAFs, its a standing joke amongst Air Force officers
220 hrs a year my ass. Here’s a more realistic figure from the horse’s mouth, http://www.f-16.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=printpage&artid=117
500 hrs till interview date since 1990? That too for a senior pilot?
And don’t try to pass off that “recent article” bit. I do read AFM you know, atleast once in a while? I can recall 2 articles namely one by Alan warnes that compared India and Pakistan and put PAF’s night flying as almost non existant and it’s doctrine as chinese with little or no combined excercises. The second was one about A-5s which gave the figure for around 120 hrs a year for A-5 pilots.
You would have also seen articles by both your ex-ACM Mushaf Ali mir and his predecessor giving PAF attrition at nearly 2/10000 hrs. That’s pathetic. The IAF’s was 1.07 and they are 3 to 4 times your size. Let’s look at 2003’s losses for example, india and pakistan suffered similar losses in actual quantity for the first time. Last time I checked, the IAF was logging 300K hrs plus and the PAF was logging 70K hrs. Have’nt you atleast read “air-accidents despite high efficiency” by an ex-PAF guy?
They why, pray, did the “inevitable” not happen when you mobilised youre armies to our border!?
Er, it’s not “my” army. Anyway, was war declared? For your sake, it did’nt. Mobilisations happen. When there really was an actual war in 1999, where was your PAF? Where was your PAF when two Mig-21s supposedly intruded into your own territory and shot down one of your own aircraft?
Your army will only take 120 Arjuns when it has a tank forceof almost 3,000! Why!? Is it because its no good!?Pakistan has T-80UD, AL Khalid and upgraded T-69II AlZarrar, so whats your point!?
You have a pretty large tank force yourself, so why the few Al-khalids(MBT-2000s) in comparison, similarly? If you have the Al-zarrar, they have the Tank-Ex. Their lower end T-72s outnumber your lower end tank nos by far.
AFAIK, India has ordered 120 Arjuns as an initial batch and will order more when the deliveries complete. Look at the 310 T-90S order. It’s being implemented in similar batches.
Right now our tank and submarine fleet is more modern then Indias
Your first MESMA equipped A90B just came recently. Indian Kilos can launch Klub cruise missiles and the Kilo is widely regarded as the quietest diesel sub in the world. Apart from the conventional Agostas, your daphnes were acquired in the late 60s! Already went through your tank fleet. Please stop making these ridiculous assertions.
Marine AH-1 pilots prefered teh TOW
over the Hellfire, maybe you know better then them!?
Proof? Seriously?
You don’t have to take anyone’s word for it. The TOW is optically tracked and wire guided. I’m not saying that it’s a bad missile by any standards but the guidance it incorporates is a tad primitive.
SabreAceDoes this mean that the Rafale is’nt quite stealthy as hyped up to be? (Still way better than Eurofighter)
SabreAceWell the pakistanis think that the FC-1 is as good as the F-22 and the SD-10 is the world’s best missile so it must naturally be superior.
Otherwise, we get arguments like “Hey! 10 years from now, it could be this and it could be that…”
When we point out it’s not so impressive specs(especially when compared to the LCA. Yeah I said it coz it’s a fact. Flame me away!), it’s dimissed as not being the final state when nobody even knows what the final state is supposed to be. 😀
Then there’s this thing about plug n’ play. Let’s keep away from the FC-1 until pakistan gets a fully integrated working model.
SabreAceDamn, you pakistani nationalists really take the cake with your Krazy BS’ing 24/7. On a thread about choppers and AH-1Fs,
1) No source or proof for claims of 40 additional AH-1Fs. Where is it? I asked decently.
2) No real indication or information on the 4 choppers that probably came from a Volga dneiper Ruslan. I only see emphasis on that plane being “russian” for some reason. 😀
3) Proof of C-NITE upgrades???
If Sabreace is correct then I still wonder why his nations main plane is still is
mig21 AKA coffin. This personal bs is filled with nationalism. Some
explanantions need to be given over and over again. India is not able to win this war hands down. It never will. Get used to that. And if IAF is so good then why is the past record show that they lose more planes then they shoot
down? Well, we can add that peacetime losses are even worser. The last
winning shot was at an unarmed naval plane… A trigger happy pilot shows
that the quality still lacks. And we all know how well the maintenance is. Even the Russian companies are shocked about that…
No offence you blindly nationalistic person but Mig-21s are’nt the only aircraft in the IAF. Speaking of which, the upgraded ones are better equipped than your F-16As. Add that with Su-30s, Mirages, Mig-29s and a whole load of other fighters and one can’t even begin to imagine how a PAF pilot would last 5 min. in the air during an actual war?
Don’t even begin to talk about attrition. The PAF’s is worse than the IAF’s. The IAF drastically reduced it’s number of crashes during 2003 but the PAF’s just got worse, despite being around 1/3rd or 1/4th the size of teh IAF. The PAF does’nt log anything near the IAF’s flying time. It’s training does’nt even compare. Maintanance? From everything I’ve read, even from the PLAAF’s and Russia’s perspective, it’s supposed to be world class, unlike yours. The fact is that your country’s armed forces are in major need of improvement if they want to dream of lasting against India in a war. I cannot help if it hurts your (unjustified) pride and goes against everything your propogandistic country wants you to beleive.
alk is cheap, lets not pretend Pakistan will be a walk over, after the attack on the Indian parliament India mobilised its army and warned Pakistan that
Pakistan is not a walkover. They can put up a good fight. But they cannot escape the inevitable if war does come. The PAF in particular, is the weakest among the three armed forces, the PN atleast boasting of new subs.
The Indian armour consists MAINLY of T-72s and Vijyantas, this is easy meat
for AH-1Fs…….
What about T-90s and Arjun tanks which are being inducted? Tank warfare also depends on training. Need I remind you of the battles of the past where a better equipped and more numerous (1965) pak armour was pulverized by the Indians? Don’t assume that you can pass off anything to people like me. If you think that the average non-Indian/Pakistani is completely ignorant of the scenario and battles in that theatre, think again.
As seahwak pointed out, Cobras will use trees and hills to pop off their TOW
rounds before quickly hiding behind cover, much of the dangerous spotting will
So what?
Well if Israel can survive then Pakistan is not much different. If the Indians
were mighty then there would be no Pakistan. Remember that they had to
move their million soldiers back? Well if one million Indians with high tech arms can not stop a few bad armed footsoldiers then Pakistan is not shaking either… BR style talking is not giong to help you here
Pakistan is equal to Israel? This what your leaders said when they went to war and came up evicerated? You have to be a pretty lame loser if you can believe that crap about Pakistan taking on India just because Israel took on the ones it did. Israel was far better trained and well equipped when compared to it’s opposition. Pakistan is nothing to write home about. This type of extreme nationalistic BS is truely painting a bad picture of “some” people.
If India was capable of defeating Pakistan then it will surely have done so in
1948, 1965 and 1971. It is true that India is a much larger country than Pakistan and economies of scale favour India, but in military terms Pakistan is not outnumbered to the same extent. The law of diminishing returns works against India. Pakistan is fully capable of fighting a defensive battle and causing intolerable losses to India. Pakistan should be able to keep pace withIndia in the future.
Hello? Earth to yet-another-deluded-pakistani-nationalist-flamer! Pakistan lost every war it fought against India and quite badly too, despite being american trained and better equipped. I can’t believe that you actually think you won the Bangladesh war? So Aliens must have stolen one half of your country and population and the majority of your army, navy and airforce, right? I’ve never seen Iraqis claim that they won against Americans or Argentinians claim that they won against the British? Pakistanis are truely mad to murder history and be so poor at it too!
Yes India has moved on since the previous wars, but then again so has Pakistan. Pakistan today is not the same Pakistan that it was in 1971, 1965 or1948. Let me teach you a lesson. India purchases a system that gives it a
benefit for a certain period lets us say 5-10 years. Then after say 10 yearsPakistan counters the new system, so India is back to square one. So
therefore India and Pakistan are after ten years back to square one. Theimbalance is no greater than it was ten years ago.
Yet, you’ve purchased nothing significant and India keeps expanding every year. Reading your posts and logic makes me scared of getting into a conversation with any pakistani in real life!
Now your Hinds may have a harder time in anti tank duties then Pakistani
cobras…thats for sure!
They have been fitted out with modern night fighting, EW and navigation systems from Israel. They can carry more than just wire guided AAMs. They are far better flown than you can ever hope your pilots to do.
This thread has gone down due to pakistani fantasizing, not indian flaming. People are getting really sick and tired of hearing these baseless stories ad nauseum. FC-1 = Su-30MKI, SD-10 better than R-77, PAF better than IAF, AH-1F better than Mi-35? It’s all getting very very boring.
The TOW needs to be optically tracked. Easy ways to defeat that.
SabreAceOriginally posted by Arthur
Considering Soviet jammers are extremely powerful (it took one ECM Mi-8PP or -SMV in Hungary to completely black out Budapest Ferihegy airport, shut down all ATC over Hungary a and severely jam the airports at Bratislava and Vienna), penetrating Pakistani airspace wasn’t necessary.
Wow! Thanks for that info. Do you have any more on Soviet jammers?
SabreAceMiG_Master- RD-33 for the first prototype is a good suggestion but do you have a link or source?
RC-400 seems beleivable and it’s an obvious choice.
I’d like to once again, request for an original report or link for the mentioned stuff above. Within a few days, 20 new (and pretty outrageous) claims/rumors about the FC-1 have come up with a lot of contradictions.
One more thing is that the PAF should have signed a contract for avionics by now. Let’s not forget how long upgrades themselves take. Strangely, MFDs, ECM systems etc of chinese origin have been shown at Zhuhai and Pakistan does’nt seem to want to pursue them. Everytime we hear of the FC-1, we hear of insistance on western avionics. Perhaps Pakistan does’nt have the confidence in chinese systems?
About Pakistan looking for the J-10?(which Usman claims is confirmed). Is’nt that detrimental to China’s interests in keeping the project unacknowledged and shrouded? Credible..indeed! :rolleyes:
SabreAceI simply dont agree that in a South Indian scenario upgraded AH-1Fs a obsolete, as discussed earlier, Pakistan is facing the Indian Army, not the Israelis or the Russians…..
I guess you’re blind to the fact that Pakistan is facing a threat that is beyond it’s capabilties by far. Even under a defensive posture, war is literally signing the death wish for pakistan’s armed forces, be it land, sea or air. The biggest thing to look out for is that India is much stronger than ever before. Why do you Pakistan values it’s nuclear forces and is developing them extensively?
The AH-1F is’nt obsolete and TOWs are still being used worldwide but 20 of them are’nt enough. Where’s the source or report about pakistan getting 40 more of them? (no pakdef BS please)
And the PG´s, F7p´s, Mirages, F16 and JF17 are there to stop IAF.
Cannon fodder, honestly. I would hate to go up against the IAF in one of those. 😮
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