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ivanotter

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March 8, 2011 at 3:32 pm in reply to: Crusader replacing Starfighter export sales #2325050

ivanotter
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I may have been too hasty.

What I ment was that the F-15 concept was coming together n 1964/5. It somehow showed a revolution from the centuries series to the newer concepts (and I will take the F-111 and F14 into it as well).

I was aiming at whether any considerations were given to this next generation a/c at that time. I do understand that it could have created a gap if the decision had been delayed.

F-16, yes, was somehow another leap.

Impressing the politicians with mach 2 could also have been a consideration, although the “bullying” due to the bribes would have been more logical (IMHO).

It is interesting to note, however, that it was a nuclear platform. Denmark and Norway were not storing nuclear weapons at that time (as far as I know); hence was it the best a/c for them?

Viggen started in late 50’s, beginning of the 60’s. Draken was in service from 1960. Sorry – it should have been Draken.

Ivan

March 7, 2011 at 4:34 pm in reply to: Crusader replacing Starfighter export sales #2326055

ivanotter
Participant

If we get back to the original thread:

Crusader as an export alternative to F-104:

Europe was not looking for a gun-fighter; hence F-8 could not cut it. That it later got missiles was something else.

Europe may have missed an opportunity i terms of European manufacture of this order. It was substantial: 2,500 F-104’s.

What would it have done to Europe if it had gone to Saab Vigen? Mirage? What did UK have to offer at that time? Maybe a totally new concept? As I understand it (and I stand to be corrected), it was at that time the first thoughts of F-14/15 started out, meaning new concept.

F-104 has never convinced me that it was the best choice, and I still believe that the bribes paid did swing it.

March 5, 2011 at 3:28 pm in reply to: Crusader replacing Starfighter export sales #2327843

ivanotter
Participant

Swerve: That is a very good answer.

We should also remember tht the 60’s was a very high growth rate and money to burn. However, the ’73 oil crisis and the worldwide inflation killed that off.

Those were the days where Europe “imported” workers from all over, hoping that they would just go away when not needed anymore. Well, that didn’t exactly happen either.

You are spot-on with the number of projects at the same time:

V-bombers (all 3 of them)
Lightning, Buccaneer, Hawk
The US F-10X series

and now we can take 15 years to develop one little fighter (Typhoon) and also mess that up in terms of orders.

Pity

March 2, 2011 at 12:51 pm in reply to: RAF 2012 and beyond #2331879

ivanotter
Participant

that would be easy: RAF at 2020:

Maybe this is now the best bet:
Dive bomber, fighter, naval, land based, attack, the works. all in one:

Wait for it:

Sorry, I’ll go slap myself

March 2, 2011 at 6:48 am in reply to: Crusader replacing Starfighter export sales #2332144

ivanotter
Participant

The German loss rate of F-104 was apparantly caused by the German pilots flying a lot more aggressive than anything else.

I am not sure whether the Crusader woudl have been the competition to F-104 in terms of export orders.

I would think Mirage, Draken/Vigen would have been a closer bet.

Ivan

February 26, 2011 at 7:57 am in reply to: Crusader replacing Starfighter export sales #2335048

ivanotter
Participant

There are approx. 1 million threads on this subject (OK, let’s play nice).

F-104: Export success: Yes, sure. Strauss, the German defense minister, got 10 million US in”incentive”. belgium prince got 1 million, etc. They also “bullied” the rest of NATO into accepting the F-104.

This was at the time when USAF chucked the F-104.

The best since sliced bread? Maybe not, but try to look at what it was supposed to do: deliver nuclear weapons.

F-105: Has always beena bit confused to me: a fighter with internal bomb bay? or a bomber with a cannon?. Should it be B-105? TAC or SAC?

True, 50% of all F-105’s got shot down in Vietnam. HOWEVER: again look at how they got utililsed.

Without knowing this, It does come across as though they were “experimenting” with some new/old concepts: Having a fighter bomber (F-4), armed with missiles only, to act as fighter cover for the bomber, which was armed with cannon (huh?). The fighter cover carrying 8tons of bombs and the bomber carrying 7tions of bombs (HUH??)

F-5 could (should?) have been a far better figther cover IMO.

February 21, 2011 at 7:42 pm in reply to: Hot Dog Typhoon thread III #2338685

ivanotter
Participant

so it is now a real contender in the naval environment.

Where does F-35 go from here? is it lack of confidence in the programme?

February 21, 2011 at 3:59 pm in reply to: Sea Gripen or Sea Typhoon? #2338856

ivanotter
Participant

I would like to see Gripen off a carrier. It is a neat little a/c.

Reading all the posts, I cannot really reconcile it all in terms of RN.

I do see that more delays on the F-35 might just kill it once and for all in terms of RN, even with the timing of the carriers.

And if gripen comes in cheaper than the remaining funding for F-35 still to be paid over, well..

Ivan

February 21, 2011 at 12:02 pm in reply to: What software development tools are used? #2338973

ivanotter
Participant

I still feel ancient!

Thanks for all the input. Always good to talk to clever people. Amazing that I wrote code in Fortran 30 years ago and it is still around (scientific, yes).

Maybe I could get a job as assembler programmer again?

February 21, 2011 at 8:11 am in reply to: What software development tools are used? #2339043

ivanotter
Participant

Well, maybe not java. OK.

Maybe at least non-procedural languages, but I get your point.

If ADA has developed this much, yes, well and fine. it still comes across as a bit stale that technology I was taught some 30 years back in time is still used in state-of-the-art military a/c. I would have thought that the world would have developed a bit since. Coding to metal is not fun, even on a good day. I can vouch for that. Developing business applications in assembler becomes boring over time as well.

The technology behind Java, etc, is not inherintly bad or prone to bugs. maybe a mission-critical Java would be next?

I think I recall that there was a mission-critical UNIX once? certified by Bell lab’s? not sure on that. DEC had something going on the hardware side as well, outside of Stratos and Tandem (and no, I don’t suggest that F-35 should have a Stratos as well, nor a Tandem).

Ivan

February 21, 2011 at 6:36 am in reply to: What software development tools are used? #2339067

ivanotter
Participant

OK, I am convinced.

And yes, It is a vey long time since I programmed anything. My last attempt was as programming manager (before I got into sales) and that was in COBOL (sic!).

I still have the books though.

Reading a bit up on ADA, yes, I can see the advantages over C or C++. Blue screen in the middle of a dog fight would be quite boring, yes.

Programming with no API’s, drivers, etc etc, would be a challenge. programming straight to the metal is hard. I take my hat off to those people.

But it emphasises the point: It takes a lot more time and your code will be more prone to bugs as you have to do a lot of the trivial things on your own, everytime. After all, the API are there to minimize code and to eliminate trivial errors.

On ADA: I learned about it univeristy some(many) moons ago. I even tried LISP which was the best thing since sliced bread. ADA was in the class of Pascal; hence my memories of a procedural language. But yes, time has moved. Although I would never have thought that an ADA compiler would have made it to this date.

The worst I have ever been involved in was the arrival of a “new” mini computer the company wanted to market. We only had the hardware and a manual. So we wrote an OS, sub-routines (it was called) for a tape deck, printers, screens, etc. It was HARD!

I would have thought we would have been furthr today, but alas.

Ivan

February 20, 2011 at 5:27 pm in reply to: What software development tools are used? #2339409

ivanotter
Participant

Now, that would have been amazing. I didn’t even know that they would still teach ADA or other “old” stuff 10 years ago.

My major achievement (in commercial programming) was programmnig an entire payroll system in assember. On top of, at least one of the programmes, was coded with a pascal program as comment. By removing just one “;”, it could be compiled by a pascal compiler and run. The only time I have ever done something like that, which took a (&*&) of a lot of time to do and was totally counterproductive.

And yes, I have also written OS’s (for PDP-11) and it even worked (!) and compilers. Maybe next upgrade for avionics software will be CICS or MQ series or Fortran. Algol could sneak in as well, it is only 50 years old. Surely not Adabas/Natural. too new then.

I am still amazed, really.

I thought the world had moved on. Sneaking out, weeping.

Ivan

February 20, 2011 at 3:52 pm in reply to: What software development tools are used? #2339436

ivanotter
Participant

Thanks for the input.

I do see where it is going. So it will be much more incremental improvements at least for the next many years to come.

I found out that the Airbus A-380 only took some 5-7 years of development. Is the number of sub-systems comparable to an F-35? counting form the coffee machine to avionics? Also programmed in ADA?

Ivan

February 20, 2011 at 2:37 pm in reply to: What software development tools are used? #2339526

ivanotter
Participant

makes a lot of sense. It is always good to listen to clever people.

Can it then be said that if someone should be comig up wth a development environment, making a quantum leap, that one (country) would be a “winner” in terms of getting a product to market faster than anybody else?

I am of course thinking of the Tejas. India has some of the finest software engineers in the world.

Isn’t there a pressure on the stores developers to offer “ease of inegration” i.e. some standardised API’s? If I could offer a product where the integration effort is far less than anything else, it could even negate some of the capabilities of the product (as has been seen in the civilian world. fantastic product, no API’s -> no market. Good enough product, ease of integration-> plenty of customers).

February 20, 2011 at 12:52 pm in reply to: What software development tools are used? #2339610

ivanotter
Participant

Thanks!!

That was interesting read. I didn’t know the scope of the (new) ADA and not of the Green Hills.

I am starting to be convinced that software development for the F-35 can and should be measured in years when using ADA, etc.

Does it then mean that the sub-system developers (e.g Storm Shadow, etc) are using ADA and then also providing standard API’s for integration?

Are there any newer systems being offered in this world? after all, there must be some developments taking place, the world didn’t stop after ADA, did it?

Ivan
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