This is a 4-month “airforce review”, which is pubblished by HAF’s Air Command. The trainning with the french group was in 2 stages:
1)early December 2009 (Pean 2009), 2) mid March 2010 (Medor 2010)
Yup. Like I said, it is an official publication of the HAF, which is why I found it ridiculous that someone would question that the exercises happened at all. Especially someone from one of the participating nations, whom you would expect to be well informed in such matters.
It does not mention anything about 6:1.
Yup. The only place I have seen the 6:1 claim was as a comment on a forum, which is about as far from official as you can get. In real life I am sure that both sides got kills, and if indeed there was a 6:1 ratio at some point this happened because of some specific circumstances that is being conveniently omitted to make it seem more impressive.
Oh yes, obviously. Here’s another Greek magazine discussing it (pp. 36-39).
And a French page, netmarine. “Après, les bâtiments font cap sur l’ouest du Péloponnèse, le nord de la Crête, le large d’Athènes. C’est dans cette zone que de nombreux exercices ont lieu avec les forces navales et aériennes helleniques. Dans le prolongement, diverses manifestations de relations publiques vont être organisées.”
Clearly, didn’t happen :rolleyes:
And FWIW the Marine Nationale mentions it as well, although they don’t go into any details the Charles de Gaulle’s “journal de bord” page briefly mentions the exercise in its March 2010 entry:
Cette inspection générale est intervenue pendant la sortie MEDOR 2010, sortie d’entraînement profitable en particulier pour amariner les 24 pilotes fraîchement qualifiés mais qui permettra aussi à l’ensemble des pilotes du groupe aérien embarqué de se confronter à l’environnement changeant des espaces aéromaritimes.
Likewise “an earlier entry” in the same “journal de bord” mentions the PEAN exercise in its November 2009 entry:
Présent à bord avec son état-major dans le cadre de la préparation de l’exercice PEAN qui débute le 23 novembre, le contre-amiral Kérignard, commandant la force aéromaritime de réaction rapide, a détaillé au CEMA les objectifs de cet l’exercice et les capacités mises en œuvre par le groupe aéronaval constitué du porte-avions et de son escorte.
So yeah. The Greeks were more vocal about it for whatever reason, but there’s no question the exercises happened.
Are you seriously suggesting the Hellenic Air Force would just make this up?
If Harriers can be based very close to the target area, and if the forward base (FOL) has sufficient fuel and munitions, the Harrier is the world’s best at generating sorties. This is because the flight time between FOL and target is short.
True but for CAS pure sortie generation rate isn’t as important as time on station. I always enjoy the USMC’s propaganda that “Basing AV-8Bs at FOB Dwyer during the fight for Marjah resulted in 65 percent of their sortie duration being spent on station. In comparison, aircraft based at Kandahar spent 55 percent of their sortie duration on station“. Yes, that’s all very well, but if you have to truck all the fuel, supplies, and ammunition all the way out there through difficult and non-blue terrain it’s really not worth it. And never mind that “sortie duration” is hardly uniform for all types; I’d rather have an F-15E spend 55% of its flight time over my head than a Harrier spend 65% of its.
The issue is the risk factor per aircraft per sortie.
Yes. And that is calculated by taking the total number of aircraft lost, and dividing by the total number of sorties flown.
Total sorties to loss rate doesn’t account for the difference in numbers deployed.
That’s because the number deployed does. not. matter.
What matters is the odds of an aircraft being lost on a sortie. A fleet of 50 aircraft flies a total of 100 sorties and loses 1 aircraft. That means 1/100 of the sorties flown resulted in an aircraft lost. The risk of losing an airplane in a sortie is 1/100. Likewise, a fleet of 5 aircraft flies a total of 100 sorties and loses 1 aircraft. Their risk of losing an airplane in a sortie is also 1/100. 100 missions flown, 1 aircraft lost, loss rate 1/100.
Put very simply the average warthog flew 57 sorties in the campaign and the average Harrier flew 45. With equal losses to both types the actual risk to the individual aircraft of surviving the mission was about 20% worse for the jumpjet. Not the 2.5 times indicated by the simple figures.
No, your math is just plain wrong. You are averaging the number of missions, but failing to average the number of aircraft lost. By your logic, if there had been 8 Harriers which flew a total of 360 missions (for an average 45 missions per aircraft) and lost 5 aircraft the results would be the same. Clearly that is not the case.
The A10’s flew more sorties but those were spread over near twice the number of airframes.
The sorties were spread out over more airframes, but so were the losses. Again, the correct measure is losses per sortie.
That only works if there were an equal number of airframes deployed though doesn’t it?. If there were 2.5 times more warthogs than Harriers in theatre then they were exposed to less risk in individual sorties per airframe. Are there any figures for mission ready rates for the A10’s in that conflict?.
Edit: Answered my own question 148 A-10’s with a 95% capable rate against 80 AV-8B’s with 90% rate. So it comes down in the A-10’s favour by a margin based on the simple numbers…that margin isnt 2.5 times though!
Uh, no, the number of airframes really doesn’t matter in this case. The metric is loss rate, which is the odds of losing an aircraft per sortie. The number of aircraft isn’t really relevant unless we’re talking about a vastly different sortie rate per aircraft. But the sortie rate per aircraft wasn’t that much different: 148 A-10s with a 95% MC rate flew 8100 sorties, while 80 AV-8Bs with a 90% MC rate flew 3300 sorties. Over those totals, the AV-8B force lost the same number of aircraft, which makes the AV-8B’s loss rate 2.5 times that of the A-10, simple arithmetic.
A source I saw stated that of the six USMC Harriers lost, half were to IR-SAM’s while the other half was to AAA.
…
Oh, and for the record I found around 7 A-10’s that were lost, with six of those being lost to IR SAM’s. I doubt anyone would say that it was an ineffective CAS aircraft.
Make it an apples to apples comparison. The same number of AV-8Bs as A-10s were lost to enemy action (5 each) but the A-10s flew 8100 sorties vs the Harriers’ 3300. So the Harriers’ loss rate is two and a half times as much.
Trying to discredit the operations of Harrier crews (RAF/RN or U.S.) in the recent Iraq/Afghanistan campaigns is shameful.
Nobody is discrediting the crews or their efforts, just correctly pointing out that those crews could today be better served with better aircraft.
@Phaid,
it’s definitely not the same angle!@Swerve,
the newer graphics from Captor-E indicate that this new repositioner is used instead of the rotating swash plate configuration considered before. Just check out the Selex Gallileo Brochures and press releases as well as the latest Eurofighter World issue.
The angle is fixed. The only difference between the “new” repositioner and the original swashplate is, as I explained before, that the antenna rotates on the swashplate base to maintain its vertical orientation. It does that to maintain polarization.
In the first image the array is almost straight and points forward, in the second one it’s gimbaled upwards. Definitely not the same off boresight orientation.
In the first image the array is angled toward the viewer, in the second image the array is angled up. Both angles are the same. There is no mechanism to allow the angle to vary.
Just take a look at the beginning where the antenna looks straight forward.
Look again. The antenna never points straight forward, because it cannot. The swashplate is at a fixed angle. It sort of looks like it is able to vary the angle because of perspective and because of the fact that the antenna itself is able to rotate on the plate, but the antenna plane is always at the same angle relative to the boresight line.
Not true. To achieve scanning 120° off the longitudinal axis, the Irbis-E antenna must be turned hard against the 60° limit of its mechanical gimbals and then steer the beam another 60° electronically, where it runs into the same issue.
While the Captor-E which is fixed at 45 degrees can’t scan usefully at all past 105 degrees off boresight.
Anyway they’re both interesting approaches to the problem. Irbis-E gimbals video
Well the swash-plate repositioner on the Captor-E works different than described above! It’s not a fixed 45° angle and the antenna isn’t just rotating, it’s more than that.
No, it is a fixed angle. The array in that demo also rotates to maintain its up-and-down orientation, but the plane of the array is always at the same angle off boresight.
Not really, both the performance and mechanical / maintenance differences are significant and interesting. An AESA fixed at 45 degrees and rotating longitudinally will actually have worse performance head-on than at 45 degrees off boresight. It will also have worse performance out at the edges of its FOV than the gimballed array for the same reason. Certainly the swash plate concept is lighter, more compact, and likely less prone to failure, but it comes with a performance penalty compared to gimbals.