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Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 209 total)
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  • in reply to: The awesomeness of European shipyards. #2049549
    radar
    Participant

    S-band is actually a very sweet spot for a naval SAM radar because it is a good balance of range and tracking qualities. Remember, the SPY-1 can continually track using S-Band and has enough tracking resolution to feed missile midphase updates. At the same time, frequency isn’t too short for all the weather phenomenon and small useless things like birds to show up on radar as it does on X-band.

    you are right, if you want to have a single, well balanced radar, s-band is the choice but how many non-aegis aaw-ships are using only a single radar?
    the horizon program is using empar (C-band) and S1850M (L-band), type 45 is sampson (S-band) and S1850M (L-band) and lcf/f-124 is apar (X-band) with smart-l (L-band). from my point of view using S-band together with L-band is not the best choice. as i said, it makes no sence to compare apar with sampson without thinking about the second radar on this ship.

    and hey how big is the difference between a large bird and a small uav or a small stealthy ashm? i would prefer to get some more echos from one of my radars and then to use a smart software to suppress birds than getting no echo from a real target.

    in reply to: The awesomeness of European shipyards. #2049776
    radar
    Participant

    I am not that hot on the APAR idea. It ties itself to using X-band for the sole purpose so the emissions can also acts as illumination for the SM-2 semi active homers. However, X-band on modulated CWI simply does not have the range and volume of S-band on PRF, the latter probably having a range of 2 or 3x, although APAR delivers the superior resolution. But then of course, having Smart-L to produce an S or L-band or NATO E band for wide volume search mitigates this.

    most articles describing apar and sampson pointing out the limited range of apar compared to sampson but apar has to be seen as one part of the apar/smart-l combo. from my point of view this X/L-band combo is more interesting than a S/L-band combo. i do not need two radars which are both capable of doing long range volume search. if i decide to use two radars why not using one frequency band for long range detection and one for high resolution tracking and medium range horizontal search?

    i don’t know if Silicon Carbide is the first choice in future but afaik right now there is also no S-band radar using it. if there will be such a radar ready to be fielded in the future perhaps we will compare it to the others.

    in reply to: The awesomeness of European shipyards. #2050092
    radar
    Participant

    The beauty of SAMPSON is that it is placed on top of a tall mast, even taller than even APAR which comes second place on this regard. The taller you are placed, the farther your radar horizon can reach allowing for earlier target engagement. This is the biggest advantage of the SAMPSON, all others like being AESA or using ARH missiles, should take their places behind.

    following this argumentation would bring empar and others in front of sampson because sampson is also not a lightweight. this shows that weight is not everything.

    personally i prefer the idea behind the apar/smart-l combo but it’s hard to make a rating between it and samspon. they differ in many points but in sum i see them head on head.

    in reply to: Is China returning the ex-Varyag to Service? #2055666
    radar
    Participant

    the attachted picture is nearly 2 years old if not older. i got it from a forum post from the 5th february 2007.
    from my point of view the marked area looks very similar to the pictures posted above. so maybe not so much has changed at this section of the varyag.

    in reply to: Large aircraft carriers compared #2063966
    radar
    Participant

    Have you SEEN how they reload those 8-round launchers? 😮 Basically useless for all intents and purposes.

    useless during a single attack for sure but after a attack it’s a option to get the carrier prepared for the next attack.

    in reply to: Large aircraft carriers compared #2064161
    radar
    Participant

    the cvn 74 testfired an essm from it’s mk-29 this month. still a 8 round launcher but with a more capable missile. reloading should be possible at sea if they carry spare rounds.

    in reply to: AAW Capacity of modern warships #2064181
    radar
    Participant

    not realy a idea but imho it is very limited based on the fact it is side mounted.

    in reply to: AAW Capacity of modern warships #2064520
    radar
    Participant

    the bluetooth example doesn’t match a terminal phase sarh-seeker behaviour.
    a very simple example would be putting two very small mirrors on a wall some meters away as targets. if you quickly illuminate them alternating with a red and a green laser you can always engage a red target and a green one and the red one will always be the red one. but you have to move your lasers fast (-> esa)
    if you do the same with two flashlights both targets will be blinking red and green. so which one is the red target and which one is the green one? if your illuminating beam is not sharp enough to highlight a single target you have no control on which target the sam will engage.

    how many tests have been done with the sm-2 against sea skimmers in a ir-only mode terminal phase? why should i rely on the ir-seeker only if i can get a fusion of the main seeker (sarh) and the fallback ir-seeker? from my point of view in the ashm-scenario the ir-seeker is only a fallback solution for supporting the sarh-seeker in heavy ecm-environments.

    in reply to: AAW Capacity of modern warships #2064540
    radar
    Participant

    time-sharing/multiplexing is no problem during mid course phase but in the terminal phase the sarh-seeker needs the reflections from the illuminated target.
    therefore the illuminators are using very narrow beams (usually 1.0° or less for the 3db-beamwidth). if the sam enters the terminal phase and gets two similar echos from different targets in it’s engagement window it has to choose one. maybe it will choose the wrong target.

    moving the illuminator between two targets illuminating both of them for terminal phase engagements is impossible with mechanical steered systems. thats the hour of apar or cea-mount.
    the ir-seeker on the block iii B is a nice addon but i wouldn’t move my fire control radar away in the very last second of engagement leaving the missile with it’s ir-seeker only. (most commonly the slaved tracker/illuminator would be also used for kill assessment shortly after impact).
    movement of the trackers itself is fast (i have no numbers for spg-62 but the 2.4m stir hp is quoted with 130°/s training and 85°/s in elevation with an acceleration for both of not less than 285°/s^2).

    in reply to: AAW Capacity of modern warships #2064592
    radar
    Participant

    Besides for the pure reason that technological advances make it possible, the active SM-6 might be motivated by exactly the problem of illumination hand-over.

    and for a hand-over you need another ship with high power illuminators. but if there is another aegis ship it would more likely use it’s own sams first (if they have any left). and of course with arh you can overcome the radar horizon and the limitations of fc-channels.

    On moving the ship into a favourable firing/illumination position: Not in a fast moving task force, where you have to hold station. That is exactly one of the issues a AAW/ASW-combo escort has.

    i think as soon as it becomes really clear that you have to start shooting very soon at an inbound target you want to maneuver your ship to unmask as much sensors and weapon systems as possible. in most cases even in a task force there will be enough room for this because you loose a lot of firepower if 50 % of your illuminators and all your ciws are masked. (and the question here is how to maneuver a tico to get all 4 illuminators unmasked. in most directions at least one off them is masked.)

    On the pK of salvo shots: I think a 2-missile salvo is more the regular case than just a single bird up. In contrast to AAA with missiles you can’t wait to see the results of the flak. So you fire a salvo, in a CEC-enabled task force not neccessarily from the same ship (to counter the effects of ECM, reflection specifics, magazine balancing, &c).

    imho this highly depends on the scenario.
    – number of incoming targets
    – engagement windows/time for a second/third interception (->target speed)
    – number of fire control channels
    – reliability of your last layer (ciws)
    – ….
    e.g. for a tico shooting two sams at a single target nearly at once would be (in most cases) the best way because they can share one spg-62, moving the mechanical driven illuminators need time, the tico has a lot of vl-cells, …

    for a f-124 on the other side with apar and only 32 mk-41 cells it would be more likely to start shooting one sam on each target and after this some spare rounds which can catch up the targets which have been missed by the first volley. and with 42 ready to fire ram’s there is a inner layer with much fire power to deal with the leakers.

    (both examples are based on the presumption that there are a high number of targets inbound. if there is only a single supersonic seaskimmer inbound, most of them will shoot two sams as soon as poosible because nobody want to ante it’s life to show the proof that the ciws can catch a supersonic leaker.)

    EDIT: Another question: What influence has relative target speed on illumination time?

    another important question but who can answer it? the same can be applied to the mid course updates. from my point of view i would work with a decreasing update cycle time during midcourse phase. after a sam has been launched they often start to follow a “optimized” flightpath to get as much kinetic power for the endgame. so in this first flightphase data-updates won’t change much on the flightpath. on the other hand soon before changing to the terminal phase a high update rate via midcourse datachannels may improve the pk more. (in terminal phase icwi may also be able to work with adaptiv update rates maybe starting with 10 or 25% time usage and ending with 50% or more).

    Oh man, that was AGES ago (like late 80s) I read about that so the source is probably a book out in the shed.

    sorry but i like to know where such information are from. sometimes it helps to rate them.

    The only time the Standards need illumination is in the final few seconds of flight (they have the IR sensor onboard as well remember) so each of the four illuminators will only be involved for a few seconds of each individual engagement. The time-sharing I was referring to is (apparently) enabled by the fact that target illumination isn’t like a laser beam but more of a narrow cone. Obviously that limits the possiblities on how far apart your targets can be for any particular illuminator but as long as you can send more than one stream of data from it it should work fine.

    i have some problems with this “time-sharing” issue for multiple targets:
    – it’s hard to say how close targets have to be to be illuminated by a single spg-62.
    – how will a sam decide which target to engage if all of them are reflecting the same signals?

    so far i assume: one illuminator -> one target -> multiple sam’s simultaneously in terminal phase on that target (if required)

    in reply to: AAW Capacity of modern warships #2064760
    radar
    Participant

    Try it with the following: (please 🙂 )
    I’ve read that a Tico can keep 24 in the air at once with up to 8 in their final phase of flight at any given time (with time-sharing on the illuminators- obviously geometry effects this). Also factor in ESSM.

    do have a source for this?
    i may add ticos later but launching multiple missiles against a single target is a different scenario. (would be more useful to increase pk) another question is how the field of views of the mk-99 may change the result. e.g. is it possible to move the tico in a position to point all 4 fc-directors on the same sea skimming inbound path.

    FYI ticon’s mK. 22 could keep up with Mk 41 in ROF

    mk-26 is quoted with 8 missiles per minute, i think mk-41 is much higher.

    That only holds if the 2nd (29cells) actually has SM2’s and not only Tomahawks and/or Asrocs.

    imho this should be the normal usage. vl-asroc is only carried in a very small number (if any) so i would spread the essm and sm-2 on both vls and than filling up the rest with tomahawk (and maybe some vl-asroc). if all the tomahawks are stored in the aft vls and i lose it thats not a big problem but if i lose all my sam’s i’m really in trouble. and launch rate is also not so important for the tomahawk.

    ?! :confused:
    Number of aerial targets getting… well, targeted, was the main comparison being used, or did i got it all wrong (again).

    yes. so far shooting with two sams at a single target is not supported by my algorithm. (it would not make much sense without calculating a pk)

    The question is how many terminal guidance codes can you send through one illuminator.
    That limits the max number of missiles one illuminator can guide towards a single target.

    the question is how this is done in detail. maybe they can change the programming during mid course updates to make two sams using exactly the same terminal illumination.

    Interesting thing with AEGIS/SPY-1 ships is how much MCGU can a SPY-1 mantain?…

    With APAR that’s easy, because APAR mantains both functions (MCGU, final interception homing guidance), EMPAR/SAMPSON is similar…

    oh it is not that easy because getting reliable data is a problem. even for apar (with the numbers 32 mid course including 16 terminal phase widely spread widely on the web) it is not clear if this numbers are for a single array or for all of them. same for all other radars.
    and i would be interested in more detailed information on which factors limits the mid course channels on the different radar systems. maybe it’s possible to drop the search scan rate to get more mid course channels, maybe some other factors are the limiter.

    Once SM-6 or ESSM ARH get IOC, that will change, you can put those missiles flying around MCGU from the CEC network, so any ship can handle the MCGU and put the missiles near the interception basket…

    is it done this way? i never read that it’s planned to change the missile controlling ship during flight. and the ship needs adequate systems. e.g. a lcs may provide enough radar data to the net to afford an engagement by an aegis ship which itself does not track the target but the lcs will not directly transmit mid course data to the sam. this is stil done by the aegis ship (based on track data from the lcs).

    in reply to: AAW Capacity of modern warships #2064966
    radar
    Participant

    The Burke graph: If you assume 1 sec in between, you have continous fire.

    The terminal phase is easy. Illumination time divided by number of illuminators is max fire rate.

    i think you are wrong here. the first sets of graphs shows a burke with a launch rate of 1 sec and stil no continous fire. during the scenario the flight time for the sams decreases. launching a sam each sec does not mean an impact each second.

    in reply to: AAW Capacity of modern warships #2064975
    radar
    Participant

    ok, three new graphs. launch rate for a single vls-complex reduced to 1 sec. apar changed to 12 fc from which 4 can be used as terminal channels. burke mid course channels also changed to 12.

    but the problem is how to get more input data. how many midcourse channels has sampson? how many on a single array? how many has aegis?

    eurosam quotes:
    up to 10 targets for SAAM and up to 12 for SAAM AD and it quotes also “Up to 16 Aster missiles simultaneously in flight to counter saturating attacks”

    in reply to: AAW Capacity of modern warships #2065368
    radar
    Participant

    Why?. You already have Mk41 with twice the firing rate of Sylver….1sec over 2secs?. Even if you just put the Sylver to parity with Mk41 that would seem to change the results a fair degree!.

    the burkes have two separate vls. imho it’s no problem to shoot from both simultaneously or lets say alternating, so the “default” launch rate is divided by two for the burkes. for the apar equipped ships i take the 2 sec for an mk-41 because there is only a single mk-41 complex.

    in reply to: AAW Capacity of modern warships #2065560
    radar
    Participant

    Just one immediate clarification. DCNS list the maximum firing rate of Sylver as 0.15s intervals. Where are you taking the 2.0 secs figure from?

    i started with the 2 sec as a default value for a single vls arrangement (never seen a video with a launch rate of less than 2 sec).
    dcns quotes 0.15 sec, eurosam quotes 0.5 sec but personally i think both values are incredible low. i think after 0.15 sec the first aster’s tail is stil in the vl-cell and after 0.5 sec it’s only a few meters above the vls. maybe there is a good reason to keep a safe distance between two launches in peacetime tests or maybe it’s only the mk 41 which is that slow (never saw a double launch from a sylver) but i can’t see a reasonable factor which makes mk-41 that much slower than sylver. so if we take this values, we should also decrease the launch rate for the mk-41.

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 209 total)