Why doesnt Pakitan buy WZ-10s instead since they are a tributary of China anyways, amkes sense.

Because US military aid money must be spent on US weapons/training etc. OTOH, I dont know if WZ-10 is available or much about its capabilities vis-a-vis super cobra in order to be able to make a more educated guess.

both your arguments about why the PAF didn’t buy Gripens are inaccurate. PAF evaluated the Gripen and there were news reports in 2004 about how the PAF wanted to buy as many as 60 Gripens, with Saab also wanting the deal to go through. the Swedish govt. did not agree to the sale as Sweden did not want to sell “weapons” to Pakistan. apparently the Erieye is not considered as a “weapon”.

Ankush, when US was not selling weapons to Pakistan, many others were not either. When US decided to sell them the F-16s, many others also became very interested.

Now, to quote one of your own links (post number 133) Sweden has declined to sell its advanced Gripen fighter planes to Pakistan until positive movement is made in the Indo-Pak peace process. However, it has agreed to sell Erie-eye Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS), to counter-balance India’s acquisition of the Israeli Phalcon Airborne Surveillance System.. Considering that Gripen NG is a client in MMRCA competition, I don’t think Swedes could even use that argument, and considering Erieye’s sale (based on the above reason), NG’s sale could be authorised. Having said that I still maintain it was the US sanctions which were affecting great many other companies/countries.

I think Gripen NG would be a nice asset for Pakistan. Erieye already there… Skip F16 follow up and buy 48 Gripen NG with the best weapons set.

Insig, I dont think that’s going to happen anytime soon. Unless PAF must, they would concentrate on JF-17/FC-20/F-16. As for PAF being a potential customer of NG, well if US sells F-16s to PAF, I would be surprised if Sweden would be that much hesitant to supply them with NG (as long as PAF could afford them).

but PAF is getting 18 Block 50 Falcons already and is upgrading its earlier F-16s in Turkey to nearly Block 50 standard. so why will they be looking to add a new type, especially one that needs to be upgraded to C/D standard ? and what the guy above posted was regarding PAF being a potential customer for the Gripen NG.

And they are not. If they could get any more western fighters, the first thing they would do is to exercise the option of additional 18 F-16s. But there is no harm in keeping your options open, and remaining a ‘potential’ customer.

PS. Apologies to everyone for 3 posts (instead of 1). But I hate posts which go as long as essays or even short novels.:)

The JF-17 will not go to 8.5G since its onboard computers will restrict it to 8G as it was designed for 8G max, not 8.5G.

Ankush, the prvious figure was 8.5 and not 8. Not sure why it is 8 now…possibly something to do with FBW???.

Saab Erieye technologically a mid-range AE&W system as per Dawn article

article link

Im surprised you didn’t spot DDM written all over that article.:)

That will be air dominance.

Rajan, sure it would be.:)

Depending on others for war time supply is not a good idea, you know. No country is your friend when they don’t need you any more…… I think you know in details about history of Sino-Pak relations.

This rule applies to every strategic relationship. Don’t you think? Sure Pak-China friendship is very much India centric. But then most (if not all) strategic partnerships are based on mutual interests. There is no such term as ‘pure friendship’ in international relations.

Who is Usman Shabir? Journalist?

Yes. That he is.

specs were obviously changed at some time to 8Gs as the PAC Kamra placard clearly shows from IDEAS 2008. stuff like that happens to save weight.

Ankush, this is something we were discussing wrt LCA just couple of days ago, in the sense that why did ADA feel the desire to design an aircraft for 9G when IAF was happy with 8G, and whether they could downgrade it to 8G (if IAF was still happy about that) to save some weight. We simply do not know why it is limited at +8G right now. Unless Im mistaken USAF F-18s are limited at around +7.5/8G, while French Mirages are supposed to be 13G capable.

Depends – actually, as you are the one guy who avoided all the entire jingoistic chest thumping, let me state this, the IAF is not really that worried about Pakistan. It is more concerned about China, which quite frankly is the new game in town in terms of inductions and capabilities. They know what Pakistan has, will have. They are not happy, but they can manage. I mean its the opponent they have tracked for a long time, and have a fair idea of whats happening.

Whatever the PakAF is getting, India got a long time back or has ordered more in substantial numbers. Till date, I have not seen anything viz the PakAF having any sort of silver bullet (a la the real/mythical/whatever AShBM for example gets reported out of China/US press versus the US Carrier fleet).

To just give a few examples..

7 AN/TPS-77 radars – well sure, and the IAF has a fair stock of Kh-31’s, Harpys, and has now ordered HAROP. Forget SEAD, for even DEAD, the IAF has specific capabilities coming online for accurate real time geolocation.

BVR? Well who got it first and has been exercising in BVR non stop w/the worlds premier AFs and with extensive inhouse tactics and training already refined and developed? A host of different SPJ technologies and systems are already in development and even deployed, so much so that they make smaller aircraft fairly hard to track for decent FCRs.

The PAF is using LGBs in anger today- the IAF did that a decade back in 1999 itself and built up capabilities thereafter.

And I do agree with most of what you have said.

I mean, I wont even go into what the IAF has already ordered, it dwarfs Pakistan. But what should be clear is the IAF is looking more and more towards the PRC, not Pak as the primary force which is of concern.

Pakistans one deterrent are its nukes, and those too are going to be affected by the ABM project, its AF is not really a deterrent. I really dont get what some posters here keep stating “minimum credible deterrent”, vis a vis the IAF, that equation simply doesnt exist. In all these days, despite all the media pushing and scaremongering for more resources, I have never even seen a ranking IAF officer worried about being deterred by the PAF. China’s growing capabilities are another matter, but the IAF woke up to the PRC quite some time back and new inductions et al are aimed to address that as well.

Teer, nukes only form one part of the equation. If you look at the numbers, of course India’s army, AF, and navy are all superior to Pakistan, and under most circumstances can overwhelm their Pakistani counterparts in a long drawn out battle. But Pakistani army, AF, and navy all form a part of that whole deterrence theory, and all will be used in conjuction to defend Pakistan just the way India would use all its armed forces in sync. We are unlikely to see a 1 on 1 thing, be it the AF or navy or army. May be our liberal use of the word detrrence here goes against the conventional wisdom here (vis-a-vis the military deterrence theory), and we better say that PAF (or any other branch of Pak armed services) maintaing a certain force is intended to ensure that any Indian agression won’t be a walk in the park. As for the matter of Indian officers giving statements, have you ever come across an Indian officer ever admitting that China might be able to overwhelm India in a long drawn out battle or something of that sort?

Of course a lot of current Indian acquisitions are targetted towards China, but a lot of Indian military doctorine (take a look at Cold Start for example) remains Pakistan centric, and now they have even started talking about the possibility a 2-front scenario.

Vikas if you are interested in a serious discussion I am game, but I really doubt whether Insig/Rimmer are in anyways concerned.

And I would say it to all of yous that if a Pakistani says JF-17 is better, in my book (at least) the Indian who does not feel that he/she has to disprove the claim or prove that LCA is better, gets better marks, and vice versa. And that goes for everything else too. But that’s just me and my opinion and my way of living in a civilised society, be it the virtual or real society. Having said so, I must admit that I have only learnt through experience and did fall prey to flame-baiting on many an ocassion.

None of them are game changers and the next generation of most of these are available to India if she chooses to buy them. India will always be able to buy better.

And no one is denying that India could get better. But does that really matter when one takes into consideration the whole Pak/Ind situation?

Following is the last post from the previous thread;

Originally Posted by Rajan
I read up your post well now most of your claims are not available and 180 degree opposite to the real world truth. Here we mean by source is a link of article/news, not like what someone tells in another forum!

First there is nothing like J-10 with AESA, now you are talking about PAF going to have J10 with AESA! Is there any deal with China for J-10 with AESA? I fear even they don’t have one for themselves!

CAT1…What exactly is 180 degree of ‘real world truth’??
As for your precious source – for PAF FC20 with AESA in 2014-15 — If you bothered to read previous posts – you would know that I have given exact issue of AFM to go read along with the recent book by Alan Warnes on Pakistan Airforce which contains extensive interviews – when another member queried about exact location of said interviews. I have said that this is in 2 interviews with the then Cheif of Air Staff and detailed exactly where to find the interviews – written up by proffessional a reputable sources — what else would you like from me in the way of ‘source’ – do you want me to buy the book and Afm issue for you and hand deliver it?? Or are you expecting me to scan and link copyright material on the forum of the company who’s copyright I would be breaching?? Given your deep interest in the PAF I would have thought you would already have the book and issue of AFM in question– No? If not very easy to buy online.

As for there being nothing like J10 with AESA — as I told you before – please come out of the darkness. Even basic aviation magazines have featured internet sourced J10B pictures and said that the nose looks to have been redesigned to house AESA. Tell you what – google ‘J10B AESA’ and see what results you get — lets see if your views change after that little exercise. Good Luck.