vikasrehmanTalking about Defence spending, following are some figures. I have given 1990 and 2009 figures (in sterling) for comparison as well as the respective (rough) percantages (wrt GDP). This should show the squeez on UK defence budget over the years.
Defence
1990 23.3 4.2
2009 41.9 2.9
Health
1990 29.3 5.2
2009 110.5 7.7
Education
1990 24.6 4.4
2009 79.9 5.6
Welfare
1990 52.8 9.4
2009 93.8 6.5
vikasrehmanIndia uses far more soldiers because we can afford them & as can be expected, they lower the abilities of the insurgents as well. One of the key things borne out in the Afghan conflict is that ISAF forces win the battle but cede the ground, it is important to stay and dominate the area for as long as necessary because otherwise the locals will not support you as you are the losing power in their eyes. Hence, India has followed the 3M approach to counter insurgency – Money (for the locals), Macadam (ie roads, ie infrastructure) and Manpower.
Afghan conflict is thousands of miles away from UK, and every dead soldier means another hard question for the government. This sort of warfare cannot be compared with the ones India has been involved in.
vikasrehmanJust a correction–PAF officials claimed from the first production model, outside of SBP.
You might be right. But I recently saw pics of 09-109 (first of the serial production) and I dont remember seeing an IFR probe. On another note, Usman Shabir of Pakdef.Info interviewed the then chief project director of JF-17 back in 2006 or so, and this is what he had to say;
The serial production of JF-17 aircraft will have the air-to-air refuelling capability, but the initial batch of these aircraft will not have the air-to-air refuelling kit installed on them. Nevertheless, basic design of all the JF-17 aircraft fulfils all the essential requirements for providing air-to-air refuelling capability. Therefore, by simple modification of an air-to-air refuelling kit, the first batch of aircraft will also be modified for the air-to-air refuelling capability.
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/ac/jf17interview.html
Why did I say first 50? May be the above statement was in my mind, and because the initial batch ordered by PAF is 42 (+8 from pre-series production), I might have said 51st.
vikasrehmanyou make a good point. the requirements are so diffrent that it will be difficult to compare the forces at all. which property will you base your comparison on when the very object of the inventories are different.
that said, IMHO that is not what this thread asks, it’s not “can UK match India in numbers”
the point of this thread is
“can UK get more bang for its buck if it took a different acquisition strategy, similar to India’s (say) ?”
How is Indian acquisition strategy meant to be different from that of UK’s?
vikasrehmanUk can perhaps start making those little compromises (horizon class for example) that would allow it to share development costs with other nations in similar situations. I really don’t see why the requirements for UK would be so different from other western european nations to warrant a going it alone on most major projects. the nuclear subs for example, couldn’t those have been bought from the US ? a joint project would have made perfect sense.
and develop only those systems in-house that make economic sense on their own.
UK has got itselved in joint ventures where it suited its needs. Typhoon is a good example. Another one is their decision to get involved with the JSF programme. Having said this, one could always do more, and will be done albeit gradually.
As for the gap between India and UK, indeed it has been narrowing and India would likely overtake UK in various fields over the coming years. India’s fast growing economy is one of the reason for quick modernisation of Indian armed forces.
But there are various localised reasons too.
Besides the real income & prices differences, defence spending in UK does not get the sort of priority it receives in several other quarters of the world. Of the top of my head, the annual public health spending in UK would be around 110 billion pounds by next year and has been receiving considerable increases year on year for past several years. Same can be said of other sectors such as education which have received billions of pounds worth of boosts over the years. One might also want to look at the unemployed/low income/disability and various other sorts of benefits paid out by the govt to those in need (I don’t even know how much that comes down to, but would be surprised if its less than tens of billions of pounds). Then there are Iraq & Afghanistan wars which required a lot of money. All this has put considerable squeez on defence spending, which in turn has not been able to keep on par with many other sectors.
vikasrehmanRight now, Malaysians are operating SU-30, F-18s, Mig-29 and F-5. Their Mig-29s are going soon, which would be followed by F-5s over next few years. Their F-18s are also getting a bid old, though they would stay around for quite a while yet (through upgrades possibly). So they need a new fighter. But how are they going to go about it? Would they add a new type of fighter to their AF or would they simply buy more MKM and/or F-18s to have only two types of fighters? What political considerations do they have to take into account when making this decision? Well, a lot of choices to be made over next few years.
vikasrehmanGood luck with surplus KC-135s. With all of the fumbling of the USAF’s new tanker plans, there won’t be any surplus jets for a while.
Agreed. I don’t think PAF is over-concerned regarding their F-16s for the time being at least, and it would be a question of when something suitable -read tanker-becomes available. As for the rest, we have already seen pics of Mirages with IFR probes, JF-17 should have this capability from the 51st machine, and FC-20 should have it from the onset.
vikasrehmanvikasrehmanhttp://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/CHINA111309.xml&headline=China%20Close%20To%20Testing%20Next-Gen%20Fighter
China Close To Testing Next-Gen Fighter
Nov 13, 2009
Bradley Perrett/Beijing
A Chinese fighter of nominally the same technology generation as the Lockheed Martin F-22 will soon enter flight testing, while a jet airlifter larger than the Airbus A400M should be unveiled by year-end.
Beijing’s fighter announcement suggests a serious failing in U.S. intelligence assessments, mocking a July 16 statement of U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates that China would have no fifth-generation fighters by 2020. Industrial competition looks more remote than strategic competition, however, since China will want to fill domestic requirements before offering the aircraft abroad, even if it judges export sales to be a wise policy.
The new fighter “is currently under development,” says Gen. He Weirong, deputy air force chief. “[It] may soon undertake its first flight, quickly enter flight testing and then quickly equip the forces.
“According to the current situation, [the entry into service] may take another eight to 10 years,” he adds.
No details of the aircraft were given, but it is almost certainly designed for supersonic cruise without afterburning. In April, Adm. Wu Shengli, the navy chief, listed supercruising fighters among equipment that his service needed. Notably, all the other equipment on his wish list looked quite achievable by the end of the next decade, matching the timing that the air force now suggests for the fighter.
China classifies aircraft of the F-22’s technology level as fourth-generation fighters, although they are called fifth-generation aircraft in the West. China’s current advanced fighter, the J-10, is locally called a third-generation aircraft, which in Chinese terms means that it is comparable with the Lockheed Martin F-16.
Work on “the fourth-generation aircraft is now proceeding intensely,” He says.
Whether the upcoming fighter is really comparable with the F-22 remains to be seen. Low radar reflectivity would not be surprising, since aircraft and missiles with stealthy shapes are now popping up in many countries, including South Korea as recently as last month (AW&ST Oct. 26-Nov. 2, p. 42). But sensor performance, information fusion and maximum supercruise speed would also be assessed critically in measuring a claim to have caught up with technology levels that the U.S. did not deploy until 2005.
The existence of a Chinese fifth-generation fighter, usually tagged J-XX, has been rumored for years without official confirmation.
If the aircraft does go into service before 2020, then at that time China may well have jumped past Britain, France and other Western European countries in terms of deployed, domestically developed combat-aircraft technology. That will depend on how quickly those countries move to field combat drones to replace current strike aircraft, says Andrew Brookes of the International Institute for Strategic Studies.
vikasrehmanvikasrehmanChina L15 Debuts at Dubai Airshow
Nov 14, 2009
John Morris/Show News
Numerous international fighter and test pilots have already flown the AVIC Hongdu L15 Eagle twin-engined trainer:confused:, as China’s marketing and flight test campaigns intensify.
In its first appearance outside China, the private venture training aircraft is flying here daily, with the company working toward orders from Middle East and African nations.
The spirited daily display involves high G turns and pull-ups of up to 6g, slow flight with angles of attack up to 25 degrees, rapid acceleration from low energy situations, and directional changes that illustrate a maximum instant turning angular velocity of 26 degrees per second.
“The pilots are demonstrating the maneuverability and carefree handling in all flight regimes,” L15 chief designer Zhang Hong said in an interview with Show News. The aircraft here is No. 3 out of the five that have been built. Two are being used for static tests, and the other three have racked up some 300 hours of flight test with a goal of Chinese military certification next year.
“We are more than half way there,” Zhang said.
The aircraft will continue to explore the flight envelope, and has demonstrated “excellent handling” at angles up to “30-plus degrees” AOA, he said. Maximum level speed will be Mach .95, with supersonic capability in a dive. Design features include fly-by-wire with flight envelope limiters and auto spin recovery
Hongdu has not yet signed any contracts for the aircraft but has already adopted several recommendations from potential customers, Zhang said. He would not name them, but the L15 is designed to meet training requirements of China’s PLAAF.
The L15 seen here is the basic Advanced Jet Trainer, which Zhang said is the beginning of a family of advanced, fly-by-wire aircraft that will include a supersonic (Mach 1.4) LIFT ground attack aircraft with radar, nine weapons hardpoints instead of the trainer’s seven, weapons management systems, and more powerful, afterburning engines (AI-222K-25Fs from Ukraine’s Ivchenko-Progress).
The first afterburning engines could be available as soon as the end of this year as work begins on the LIFT program, Zhang said. Plans call for that variant to be certified in 2012.
Zhang said that the philosophy behind the L15 family is that of a low-cost, low maintenance aircraft that, with minimal aerodynamic and systems changes, can perform a wide variety of missions from training to combat and tactical support.
vikasrehmanFC-1 is the choice for Indonesia Air Force in 2013.
Single engine, economical price tag and free from American clutches.. Chinese aircraft, Russian engine. 😀
Makes a lot of sense. To structure their AF around SU-30 & FC-1. So all their eggs are in not one basket.
But haven’t their relations improved with the US in recent days? With Malays and Indonesian are already flying Russian fighters, I wonder how eager the US would be to further lose its authority over these two by letting them fall into chinese sphere?
vikasrehmanFollowing the recent news about FC-20 preliminary contract between China and Pakistan, and Malays expressing interest in seeking China’s Logistic Support For Sukhoi Fighters, its the turn of the Indonesians. China surely appears to be gradually gaining a place amongst world’s big arms exporters.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/11/13/ri-purchase-trainer-attack-aircraft-russia-china.html
RI to purchase trainer, attack aircraft from Russia, China
The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Fri, 11/13/2009 8:58 AM | National
Indonesia will purchase new trainer/light attack aircraft from Russia and China as part of an effort to revitalize its primary defense system, says newly sworn-in Air Force chief of staff Vice Marshal Imam Safaat.
He said the new jets, consisting the Yak-130 from Russia and the FTC-2000 Mountain Eagle from China, would replace the squadrons of British Hawk Mk-53 jets and American OV-10 Bronco.
The Air Force has 20 Hawk Mk-53, and eight turboprop-driven OV-10 Bronco aircraft that are around 30 years old.
“We plan to replace them in the next couple of years. We have done feasibility studies for the purchases, and will propose them to the government soon,” Imam said after the handover ceremony at Halim Perdanakusumah Air Force Base in East Jakarta. Imam replaced Marshal Subandrio.
It would be the first time Indonesia purchases warplanes from China and the second from Russia after the United States embargoed the supply of spare parts for its F-5E Tiger II and F-16 Fighting Falcon jet fighters and C-130 Hercules transport planes in 1999 due to human rights abuses mainly East Timor………….
Iman said the military aircraft had to be replaced soon because the Air Force had used the existing planes for more than 30 years.
Imam said further that the Indonesian Military had also planned to replace the old F-5E Tiger II jets. “We expect to replace them by 2013,” he told The Jakarta Post.
Imam declined to mention the prices of the new aircraft, saying he had not yet discussed it with the government.
“They are expensive,” he said, adding the aircraft would be purchased using foreign aid.
vikasrehmanI don’t think if it were so far away, China would be even mentioning it at this stage. From the interview, it seems like the thing will fly in a year or so (first prototype). Possibly even inducted in a lesser configuration (around 2017) while gradually maturing the platform ( by 2025 or so similar to J10 and J10B).
Weird thing is even a fighter like J-10 wasnt officially acknowledged until it was completely developed and ready. Do we take it that China will be pretty open about its 5th gen plane and we would be getting regular updates as was the case of JF-17 since it is acknowledging it even before its first test flight?
When I say 2025-30 (and I can’t imagine it before 2025) I mean the actual squadron level induction of an operational fighter. I think an airframe (prototype) could fly relatively soon, but 5th gen type of engine & avionics would take quite a while. As for a chinese official talking about it, I think PLA is slowly becoming more transparent. Though we cannot expect them to talk about everything (at least not in the near future), I think China (being in the major league) now recognises the need not to startle other big players. Unless you must.
vikasrehmanIt is actually a CCTV video. The video is something like 25 minute long. If anyone wants the links let me know. But its in Chinese. You’ll need a translator.
From what I read (translated by others) they said 1st flight COULD BE VERY SOON. And another 8-10 years at least until it reaches IOC. So around 2020?! Not too optimistic. Even if one adds 5 – 10 year delay that’ll be 2025 – 2030
Agreed. As is usually the case with such projects, they are almost always delayed and chinese fielding a 5th gen fighter around 2025-30 is something no one could ignore.
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