vikasrehmanYeah, we know, you downed a AMRAAM missile, first time its ever done, also same missile with its decription and lot number was found within hours and transported to Dehli for a press conference.
We all bow our heads….
Correction: The article talks of defeating AMRAAM and not downing of it.
Observation: The article mentions “multiple” launches of AMRAAM. I would think that multiple refers to two or more. I would also assume that if an AMRAAM does not hit a target, it would fall down once it has run out of fuel, i.e. motor has burnt out. India has already presented evidence of one AMRAAM, which leaves at least one AMRAAM unaccounted for. I would guess that the other AMRAAM hit the Bison. If not, as some Indian experts are claiming, we may see more AMRAAM/s found in Indian Territory. So let us wait for that.
Coming back to Indian experts who are claiming that the Bison went down because of flame out, let us assume that was the cause of its crash. An Indian Heli also went down on the same day because of engine (or whatever) issues. This was day 2 of hostilities, which begs the question if IAF is facing a maintenance crisis. Now if one takes into account the whole month of Feb, I also recall the M2K-5 crash and the hawk incident at Aero India. Am I missing something? What does this say about IAF’s preparedness?
vikasrehmanIt is funny going by what people are quoting the Indian ACM on
“We don’;t count casualties”
“If we did not strike anything why did they strike back”
“I think they lost an F-16 against us”
Just simply does not sound like a man exuding confidence and certainty in what his force has achieved, could be me, but coming across like someone who is reluctantly backing up the politicians here….
I think it was a measured presser by the ACM, where he gave more info about IAF future plans wrt LCA than what is currently ongoing in pak-ind context. But then he did say this was an ongoing op (how so is anyone’s guess) so that is fine.
Taken this presser together with the Indian PM’s remarks (first he said (to the effect) that IAF felt the absence of Rafale, and now his clarification (to the effect) if we had Rafale none of our aircrafts would have gone down and none of their would have been saved) is telling. It is absolutely astonishing to see such remarks coming from the Indian PM. What is he trying to say about the IAF? IAF has clear qualitative and numerical advantage over PAF, and we have told upmteen number of times that IAF pilots get better training and more hours than PAF pilots. So why was Rafale so important for the current scenario?
My personal take on this is that IAF is a professional force (as indicated by the tight lipped presser of the ACM), but Indian PM has upcoming elections in mind, and Rafale deal had become a massive debate (prior to Pulwama attack) and is likely to take the centre stage again unless the current escalation continues. PM Modi has a lot to answer for, which he probably does not want to do before he has bagged the elections.
vikasrehmanFirst off, can’t they set up a briefing with mics that work?
Second, he does not confirm. He says “I think they lost an F-16 against us”.
Yes, that is what he said. That presser did not have anything we did not already know. But I found the question about PAF use of F-16 rather funny, though the ACM gave a very measured response.
vikasrehmanWell if nothing was hit and every thing was fine why did the PAF even bother to attack indian mil targets around LOC and penetrated 2-3 km inside LOC
Austin, sorry pal, but are you for real on this one? Had PAF crossed over, dropped a few bombs in open space without causing any damage, would you expect IAF not to do anything? Is this why IAF, that was supposed to eliminate PAF within 12-24 hours of any hostility, done nothing since the morning of 27 Feb?
Pak did not respond to ”so called” surgical strikes 1 under international pressure and assurances because there was no damage. This time India went a step too far, probably thinking there would be no response yet again, but Pak decided to respond. This is the a clear example of how miscalculations can and will occur in Ind-Pak scenario. Reality is far from what BRF and the like-minded sites propagate amongst Indian youngsters, where many were led to believe (prior to 27 Feb) that PAF will move all its its assets close to it’s western borders as soon as the mighty IAF moves against Pakistan and that JF-17 is not operational. It is high time experts (real and self-styled) from both sides did some introspection and re-consider the whole scenario. As soon as one lets his/her nationalist zeal take over, their analytical faculties go down the drain.
vikasrehmanNo proof India shot down Pakistan F-16 https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/article/no-proof-india-shot-down-pakistan-f-16/
Why claims about the PAF pilot’s lynching don’t add up https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/03/05/why-claims-about-the-paf-pilots-lynching-dont-add-up
This is why journalists should do their due diligence before publishing anythinanythng. Praveen Swami, a well known journalist, owes an explanation to his profession. I am not saying he is definitely wrong, but these articles have made massive holes in his story, and if he is still sticking to his story he should be able to explain.
vikasrehmanI have seen a couple of videos of parachutes comes down. Does anyone know if there are any more such videos?
vikasrehmanI will believe a retired Air Vice Marshal of the Indian Air Force over any users here or those ‘arm chair analysts’ and a western media obsessed with the balancing act and preventing war. The new India does not want to prevent war at any costs.
As long as he is in IAF service, Abhinandan will only be able to share such information with the approval of IAF.
I do not think IAF would release AWACS data or any sensitive material to satisfy the international public or aviation enthusiasts.
The cardinal rule of any battle including fist fights at the local bar is. Even if its not witnessed by any or even if the witnesses forget, the one who struck the blow and the one who received it will not forget about it.
IAF strikes and engagement had the desired benefit.
1. It is unlikely that Pakistan will allow terror outfits to strike India again, and if they do then India will strike Pakistan (that is established and the P.M downwards have been pretty clear, no matter how high the escalation matrix becomes any terror strike in India by Pakistani based militants will result in a strike on their bases in Pakistan).
2. Showed the skill of the IAF (at least in the eyes of Indian public) by downing a newer fighter with a legacy aircraft.
3. The whole episode had been more disruptive for Pakistani establishment and civilian life with the closure of their air space. The closure of Indian air Space was minimal and for most Indians its business as usual.
4. It was able to prove beyond doubt that PakistanI F16s were involved blowing PAF’s claim out of the water and possibly landing them in trouble with the U.S.
Please add the following to this list:
5. IAF would have fared better if they had Rafale.
In view of the above list of achievements, I have no idea how so. But the remark came from the highest official Indian authority.
vikasrehmanMedia cited “Govt sources”, instance:
https://m.economictimes.com/news/def…w/68165466.cmsWe must understand that we are not the target audience, it’s the masses, the electorate in India, who can’t tell the difference between B-2 and Mig-21.
It’s right of IAF to shift the on us on to civilian authorities. They were given the targets, they delivered the payload there. It’s not their duty to prop up the false narrative as a professional force, let the professional politicians and hysterical media do it.
I could not agree more.
Now it is up to the Indian electorate to question their civilian leadership’s narrative. In new India, however, this would not be an easy task, as indicated by a recent video in which a mob of 100 odd right wing students forced their professor to kneel down and apologise for wuestioning official Indian line. One expects such events in authoritarian regimes such as China, or democracies controlled by military such as Pakistan, but not in the largest secular democracy in the world.
vikasrehmanI’d be careful naming anyone, PAF not made any comment yet, also we (at the moment) lack evidence of a SU-30 shoot down. IAF giving press conferences whilst PAF chief busy with visiting the boys, so lets see what DGISPR says at some point
This was in mainstream media, hence I mentioned the name with a huge caveat. I don’t expect anything official from PAF (plausible deniability) and internet warriors can fight it out amongst themselves.
vikasrehmanWhat I find actually fascinating is that the IAF chief has said that Ops are still continuing. This is actually the biggest alert IAF and it’s Western Command have ever faced and also the PAF, in over 30 years, yet the Air Officer Commanding IAF Western Command has been “retired”.
This is either a massive coincidence or reveals much more. Also if such a senior position (arguably the most important in the IAF after the ACM) is in the middle of ops and due to retire, you usually just let him extend for a few days no?
Mags, I don’t think we can read much into that. Yes, it makes sense to have extended his tenure. But staying with the normal routine also conveys the message that all is normal.
On another note, I have just seen the name of Wing Commander Nauman Ali Khan appearing in Pak media, who supposedly shot down a MKI. Worth mentioning only because it is circulating amongst news channels, but treat this with a big pinch of salt, and this may be their response to F-16 alleged shooting down.
vikasrehmanboth fighters are F-15 in this video.
I might give up any hope of recognising fighters in such videos and consider getting my eyes re-tested if they are F-15s, especially the first one. 🙂
vikasrehmanYes I know and in fact this is a prime example of the lies and propaganda – in this case by some Pakistani fan boys – who are so much blinded by the national ego that they now deliberately ignore these new facts even if a few posts before they were hyping it as proof for an MKI-kill.
This is my post at twitter.
https://twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1102275309309739014My point however is not to support blindly one side against the other one; I do not even favour one … I only hate dumb nationalistic chest-bumping and lies as you can find in so many post all over the regular social media, so that is most difficult to find out what is fact and what is fake. This one is clearly a fake but still does not proof an MKI was shot down nor that none was shot and the same for the F-16.
Precisely. I think we may start getting better analyses and info over the coming days through articles written by impartial journalists. Over the last few days, I have given up on any media. The name of a poster would most likely indicate the content of a post or article.
vikasrehmanPardon to play the devil’s advocate, but so far and regardless all dirty propaganda from both sides, the only CONFIRMED loss or kill is a MiG-21 Bison. Neither the Su-30MKK as claimed by the Pakistani nor the F-16 as claimed by the Indians is confirmed.
i can fully understand both sides that in mind of nationalistic fewer the sense to facts get lost, but again, so far none of these claims was confirmed by evidence and pictorial facts nor by any independent third party. :confused:
There is video out there supposedly showing a JF-17 in pursuit of a MKI. I have seen it in much higher resolution, and the first fighter is most definitely not a MKI. My first impression was it was two JF-17s, flying close to the LOC. I’ll try to dig more info as to where exactly that vid was recorded over the coming days and will share.
vikasrehmanFishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21’s F-16 kill is no fluke
A question. Does Mig-21 have legs to be involved in a 15 minute dogfight even at high altitude?
vikasrehmanIAF chief asked if we had dropped bombs in jungle, why did they (PAF) respond?
Is this for real? Coming from IAF chief? In light of Ind-Pak context. Or does this imply that had PAF violated Indian airspace, dropped a few bombs in uninhabited areas (before any Indian strikes), then IAF would have just ignored that? If the answer is no, what makes him think that PAF would ignore them? Remember, India is no USA.
Again, both IAF and PAF strikes were largely symbolic meant to convey certain messages to each other. With Indian govt using IAF strikes to gain political advantage, they encouraged rumours and war mongering, or at the least they did nothing to correct certain notions. With the dust settling down, people have started to raise questions. If situation improves, there would be more questions for Modi govt. This is one of the reasons, why I don’t expect de-escalation to happen quickly. Modi govt does not want to face tough questions for now, and continuation of hostilities serves them better until elections are over.
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