vikasrehmanOh i just remember reading it in tphuang’s blog.
As far as i know the ones delivered to pakistan are equiped with a Chinese radar. The wiki page has the info with citations regarding this. The Bisons advantage was partly due to its low rcs, which the JF 17 cannot match.
You are mistaking me, they can replace the J-7 but they do not have that much more capability to demand one. The Chinese as pointed out would rather get lesser numbers of J 10s
tphuang writes a lot of stuff. Why did u cling to this piece of info? Do you also believe everything else (he says) with similar entusiasm?
We have known since 2004, that first 50 would be equipped with Chinese radar and avionics suite. Presently PAF is negotiating with France (and possibly some other countries) and there are indications it would go for RC-400/MICA for the next bacth. As for low RCS, how do you know what JF-17/FC-1 has been treated or not treated with? What do we know about it ECM/ECCM capabilities?
As for Chinese accepting/not accepting…as I said only time would tell.
vikasrehmanYes in effect like I said, not good enough for Chinese service but cheap enough for Pakistani Service. And the perspective customers include the likes of Zimbabwe, which means that cost not effectiveness is the priority.
Im sure, most AFs conduct cost/benefit analysis.:)
As for being good enough, only time would tell.:) Every AF has its own requirements, and whereas we are yet to hear from China about FC-1 (if you have any evidence to the contrary, then please share…otherwise its a personal view…right?:D), PAF has already placed orders for a few squadrons and indicated its requirements going up to 275.
vikasrehmanNo what it means is that the LCA in its current form do not offer significant advantages over the Mig 21s. Not enough to invest on ie. :D. The JF 17 is probably better than the J-7 all I am saying is that it may not be that much better as to be the replacement.
Any Chinese confirmation regarding this? Any chinese confirmation whether they would or would not order? Bisons performed really well against Eagles…didn’t they? JF-17 has better range, better radar (even Russian offered they Kopyo as well as Israeli 2032 (?)), and in every likelihood a better avionics suit than Bison…and they still cant replace J-7?
vikasrehmanWatch, PAF will not get them. And if by a miracle they get them, USA will prevent their use against friendly nations including ofcourse India. There has already been a long debate on humiliating conditions USA has made PAF to agree on if PAF wants block52+.
This is why PAF decided to rely more heavily on Chinese support. JF-17/J-10 would materialise…and if those F-16s dont, then PAF would always have the options of going for something else, i.e. chinese. Back in 80s US used to enjoy so much influence in Pakistan, and because of these tactics they lost a lot of it in so many countries.
vikasrehmanWhen was the last time that a country made an aircraft entirely for overseas sales ? At least they could replace the old J 7s ? That is provided that they excede the capabilities of a J-7. May be it do not and thats why they are not being inducted.
:rolleyes:
What? Come on…at least present a better argument. LCA was meant to replace Mig-21s…and IAF is yet to order anything in substantial number. Does this mean that present LCA is worse than Mig-21s?
vikasrehmanChinese not taking it is not negative at all. JF-17 is made primarily for the export. Besides, in the presence of J-10 and J-11, there is no slot left for the JF-17 to fill in in the chinese airforce. Cabable or not, at this point it is irrelevant because there are only six JF-17 which are in evaluation process. They are not going to make any difference what so ever in possible PAF/IAF aerial engagements.
Agreed. BTW PAF has 8, I believe.
As for Chinese, I think China is yet to confirm her intentions.
vikasrehmanWell, some believe PAF does have BVR.. Also, some don’t give BVR at max ranges that much credibility. However, there is no question that right now, this minute, the IAF is more capable of hurt than the PAF. My analysis illustrates this as well – a massive 21% gap in capability.
And my personal opinion is that the gap is well above 21%.
vikasrehmanI think they are finally waking up to the reality and getting BVR capable aircraft and AWACS systems. But by the time they are acquired IAF should have its 3 Phalcons and over 160+ MKIs.
With the MRCA to start delivery in 2013-14, I think the Indian dominance is going to continue.
Will the Chinese be willing to share/sell their fifth gen fighter to Pakistan in the future ?
From what we know, AMRAAMs are already coming into Pakistan though of course upgraded/new F-16s are yet to materialise. As for BVRAAM, I certainly hope this wont be the case, but we might find out what they have been operating for sometime.:)
Regarding Indian dominance, I do agree…Pakistan simply cannot macth. But the question to any Indian politician should be…how much would this affect Indian capabilities vis-a-vis China in future?
vikasrehmanWhile i agree with that whole heartedly. The airstrikes if India carries out will probably be more of a political decision than a strategic one as the government is under big pressure.
This is where I slightly disagree. If Im not mistaken, there was not much (if any) backlash against congress in recent state elections…and if so, I dont know what political pressure there is on them.
vikasrehmanOh well i like Western and Russian stuff and Hate Chinese copies :D, guess everyone has their own view then.
personal views…i assume.:)
vikasrehmanI think in case of an Indian air strike (which is very much on), we will clearly see the capability of both the airforces. I do not think PAF has the resources to conduct a retaliatory strike deep inside Indian territory. :D. Then again i think there will be losses to IAF when conducting such a raid, probably owing more to SAM.
Well, we’ll find out tomorrow…wont we?
There is almost zero chance of any strike/s, for one simple reason. No one knows about Pakistani response. Even surgical strikes would more than likely receive an unprecedented response, and it wont take long for the whole thing to flare up into an open war. US is one thing (attacks in tribal areas have Pakistani blessings), but such an attack by India would be something totally different.
To get any advantage, IAF has to assure the destruction of any targets (terrorism-related of course) at the same time. Max India would ever do is one surgical strike to test out Pakistani response…and any such effort by India would negate them any advantage.
So all in all…while rhetoric will continue, things are unlikely to materialise on the ground at a heavy scale. Any full scale war with Pakistan would probably push Pakistan into the stone age (my personal opinion), but India’s dream of becoming a global superpower will have to wait for a long time…I belive manmohan singh mentioned 20 years or so.
vikasrehmanI think by now all of Pakistan’s Mirages are upgraded. I think valuing the Bison as equal to the F-7 PG is about fair. : ) but thanks, will contemplate on your opinion for a while and see if I think differently. 🙂
I dont think all Mirages have been upgraded. So far there have been 4 confirmed batches…ROSE I to ROSE IV.
As for Bison, its undoubtedly superior to PG as it would always get the first shot forcing PG to go on defensive.
As for some of the upgraded Mirages, yes they are BVR capable.
vikasrehmanThose figures are controversial and questionable. The most fundamental question is how were they derived?
vikasrehmanYou are comparing apples to oranges. The IAF can be as nitpicky as it wants with the LCA, it is a homegrown product.
Such liberties are not always possible when dealing with aircraft from other sources that are judged on numerous criteria other than performance (eg. political, strategic, economic, TOT etc). The MRCA is an excellent example of
this type of decision making.For example, just a few years ago (2003) the IAF was salivating over the Mirage 2000-5, which btw cannot operate from high altitudes such as Leh (as seen from an article in this thread). Again, its TWR and that of the Bison are hardly anything fancy. Also, these aircraft are not expected (and I wonder if they were even tested) to perform at sea level. The LCA otoh is expected to perform well both at sea level and high altitude. Why? Because you can very well expect the moon from indigenous stuff; when it comes to other sources, you are restricted to what you are offered.
regards,
USS
See, this is where it stops making sense.
People try to use various lines of arguments in support of their own theories, but these arguments don’t fit together.
LCA is a home grown product. Indian aviation industry is not all that advanced in comparison with US/Russia/some EU states. LCA is meant to be be 2-3 times cheaper than MMRCA contenders. Besides all these limitations, IAF can ask for the moon when it comes to LCA, yet wouldn’t mind compromising on avionics performance when it comes to MMRCA contenders. Why?
vikasrehmanMy guess India would not try to intergrate Western Equipment (US or European) on Russian Aircraft…………nor the other way around.
Agreed. But I think it would be more to do with the mistrust between US/Russia rather than India’s willingness to do so.
As for the ToT question the West is very willing and has said full access…..
Any access from any side would be limited to one extent or another. Neither Russia nor US (in particular) want an India that is totally independent in this regard…unless India makes a clear cut choice which is unlikely to happen anytime sooner. Both sides would keep offering more and more carrots and India would have to balance her strategic relation very delicately…not easy even during the easiest of the times.
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