vikasrehmanAnd with that I take my leave. I hope it all calms down and I’m able to visit the region soon as I had planned it before. At the end of the day, as my Indian friend (an ardent supporter of BJP) keeps telling me or Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail & flight lieutenant Nachiket discovered 20 years sgo, Pakistanis and Indians after all are not all that different (my addition: no matter what their political or relegious elite might make them think).
Adieu!
vikasrehmanIn other related news, the identity of the PAF pilot that was downed has been revealed on social media. Can someone confirm if this is true. He is an Air Marshal’s son, so if he really did die then I’m sure it will be difficult to keep this news from surfacing.
BlackArcher, if I understand your meaning correctly, here you are contradicting some Indian posters’ opinion on this forum, who implied that in a ”state like pakistan” even in today’s age, information outlet is controlled. One cannot have it both ways.
Considering the identity of this PAF pilot (now deceased according to the Indian air marshal), I think PAF would either have to prove he is alive or that he died some time ago. Let’s see what comes out of it.
vikasrehmanDoubtful that a company would respond to such a request from a foreign government. Such information would need to be requested from the US government. The company has no authority to pass such information to a 3rd state.
In view of potential importance of India to LM, the latter may find it difficult to ignore Indian request.
vikasrehmanWhether an F-16 went down or not, hopefully it would become clear. In the meantime, we ought to step back and wait for further information instead of just keep presenting two extreme ends of an argument. I think the best news from today is the imminent release of the captured IAF pilot.
vikasrehmanPosters on this thread who are nationals (and ex-pats) from both nations showed considerable restraint and decorum on the India and Pakistan threads for the majority of this crisis. Commendable. Let’s not watch it devolve into recriminations, sniping, and bombastic comments now.
Two points, there still is no evidence of any F-16 lost. The other obvious point is that the IAF isn’t naive. The F-16 block 70 ( F-16V, F-21 “rebranding exercise”) isn’t equivalent to an F-16 block 15 from the 1980’s (majority of PAF holdings), or even the few block 50’s they possess. The effectiveness of a modern fighter is systems based and the F-16 block 70 is a different beast than the legacy F-16’s (new AESA, IDAS, mission computer, software, IFF, HUD, flat panel displays, on and on).
They will choose (or likely not choose) the RFI submission based on multiple factors, outer mold lines and designation aren’t likely to be one of them. If the F-16 block 70 isn’t chosen, lack of room for future growth is a major strike against it (besides the byzantine acquisition practices of India).
Absolutely.
And that is the very point LM (and Scooter) has always made and rightly. More than 3000 units are produced and operated by 25 or so countries. But an F-16 is alwsys an F-16 and people were able to see right through the ploy when LM recently called it F-21.
vikasrehmanIt is after years I have spent so much surfing media (just happened to be off work). But some interesting observations. There is extraordinary polarisation. People tend to use every shred of evidence regardless of how discredited the source is to prove their own point. They only tend to use what supports their theory and ignore everything else especially if it goes against their beliefs. Our armchair generals, with any form of power, e.g. forum moderation, are living in a Dreamworld telling their disciples which sites not to visit. May be our (human) instinct is to go back to the cave life.
vikasrehman24 Pak Jets Tried To Cross Over, Intercepted By 8 Air Force Fighters
An interesting story.
As per DG ISPR, PAF fighters had 6 targets (so to speak). I imagine these were sites of military or strategic importance. Because Pak did not want to escalate the situation (rather send a message to India) they did not target those instsllation but released their load to hit empty ground around those installation. Message sent.
I wouldn’t even bother asking where those MKI, upgraded M2K, and Bisons had come from, but would you agree that the above article, if true, debunks some popular Indian myths?
PAF F-16 have kill switches.
JF-17 is not fully combat operational but only a hangar queen. The article seems to indicate they were part of the strike package. I also saw a video of two JF-17s flying low close to the LOC, which I won’t share for now, but I could only identify AAM on them (but then I’m not great with such stuff). PAF must be stupid to chuck such ‘unproven’ and ‘not combat capable’ fighters into war against the likes of MKI.
With the first IAF strike, PAF would move all assets closer to Western borders to save them. 24 seems quite a large cocontingent.
IAF has the capacity to monitor entire Pakistani airspace through ultramodern Phalcons and other systems. Why was such a large contingent only detected when they were 10 km from LOC. Did these MKI, upgraded M2K that have the capability to engage multiple targets fire off their BVRAAM when an F-16 fired off two AMRAAMs one of which hit its target? Let’s hope our experts learn a lesson or two from this scenario; while it is easy to quote brochure ranges and specifications, the reality is usually a lot different.
Finally, I do feel for Scooter. No chance for F-16 or F-21 for IAF now.
vikasrehmanLet’s hope both sides learn from this. I’m hoping Pakistan to self-anslyse and finally ban the likes of Hafiz Saeed completely instead of allowing his organisation to operate under other names. This is a decision Pakistan has to make and I am sure they will under the current govt. It is the first time army and civil govt are on the same page vis-a-vis on everything and the present govt is fully focused on economy.
On the other hand, I think India has to do some introspection too. a) It’s not a good idea to let your media take the war hysteria to such levels from where they cannot back down. b) vote bank politics is not good, and c) india cannot blame all their problems on Pakistan. While there is no doubt that in the 90s, the Kashmiri movement was hijacked by Pakistani based militants, the recent Kashmiri movement is indigenous by and large. There were voices in Kashmir who supported autonomy, even they want freedom now. Why do you think the movement that had almost died a few years back re-surfaced all of a sudden? Why is it that locals come out on the streets whenever Indian forces surround some militant? Is Pakistan behind all this? No. India poured billions into Kashmir but their army faces stones. Do you know why? Because while India poured billions into Kashmir, they forgot to return Kashmiris their dignity. Kashmiris face humiliation at countless checkpoints on daily basis and Indian army has almost complete immunity. The present Kashmiri generation has grown with such sights and they are fed up. Then comes the Modi govt and all this talk of Article 35A was the last straw. My parents were from that region (Pakistani side). I still visit the region when I have time. If India wants to integrate Kashmir into India, here is how they can. Restore their faith in India. Give them their dignity. And you will have your side of Kashmir. Pakistani army is making the same mistake in parts of Baluchistan and KPK. I do hope they learn and talk to people instead of people going missing under mysterious circumstances.
vikasrehmanYup, purely humanitarian move by Pak will be spun as a “massive Indian victory”. The amount of crap pouring out of their media last few days is really eye opening.
People are just so predictable. Look at the initial Indian reaction, especially on social media. God help us all. But I am glad that by making a public comment about this, Pakistan is now committed to this. I wish WC Abhinandan all the best.
I have followed Imran Khan for years. One thing I know about him is that he is not your everyday politician. From the start of first cancer hospital he built in Pakistan because his mother could not be treated due to the lack of such facilities in the country, he feels for people and wants to get them out of poverty through economic betterment. He knows this is not possible without improving ties with neighbours. I hope, some Indian govt has the will to talk to him, and things would improve.
vikasrehmanThe speech by Pak PM to the joint session of parliament was well balanced, and completely opposite to the false bravado of the Indian PM who was using poetry (swearing by the soil of his homeland and so on) to lure voters. It seems Pak PM did try to contact the Ind PM yesterday, but this did not happen. He also mentioned that PA was expecting missile strikes last night and would have retaliated if it had happened. One thing is absolutely clear. Any Indian action would have a reaction. Let’s hope, sane minds on both sides prevail before a miscalculation is made. Anyone who wants a war, I would urge them to move to the front lines alongside LOC. I am sure locals would help all the help from their brothers and sisters.
vikasrehmanYup, purely humanitarian move by Pak will be spun as a “massive Indian victory”. The amount of crap pouring out of their media last few days is really eye opening.
Breaking news.
Pak PM just announced that WC Abhinandan will be release tomorrow.
Fantastic news.
vikasrehmanWell, it’s a mountaneous region, it is plausible that a plane would crash in remote area which military would reach much quicker than the locals and cordon the area off. Still, I think there is a notable dearth of evidence of more than 1 plane crashing yesterday – other than the helicopter which interestingly Pakistan did NOT claim. Civilians were aware of the air battle and were filming, if there really were more casualties we should have seen more pics and footage of the flaming wrecks, parachutes etc.
That is plausible.
vikasrehmanThe latest news coming from foreign office is that Pakistan would consider an early release of WC Abhinandan if this would help to de-escalate the situation. I mentioned yesterday that Pak ought to consider this approach. The news is authentic because it came from the foreign minister himself in a TV interview or press conference. I sincerely hope this happens. But I can also imagine things going down south with Indian sensationalist media portraying this as Pakistani weakness. I hope sane minds in Indian media (if any are left) would prevail and let it rest till the wing commander is back with his family. Then they can have their freedom to drum up war hysteria and ask for surgical strikes 3 aka operation revenge.
vikasrehmanIndian Air Force and MEA did not claim it was an F 16. That is just media speculation. They said a PAF Jet.
In a country that is basically ran by the military, they have no issues in cordoning off areas relatively easily and keeping public away. The same thing happened after Indian strikes, the area was cordoned off so that they could push their own narrative.
India conducted a deep penetration strike inside Pakistan and not even the occupied part of Kashmir. Now Pakistan claimed there were no causalities, but their actions the next day ( a shallow incursion and retreat) shows that the Indian narrative was true. Do you think 6 1000 pound Spice glide bombs would only result in the damage they have shown you ?
India has scored a major diplomatic and military victory and drastically reduced the conflict threshold in the region. This is the new norm from now on, if India is attacked by Pakistani proxies, it will use conventional military means to strike at Pakistan.
IIRC, the Indian pilot captured in 1999 said on his return that Pakistanis and Indians share more than they this. I may be mistaken and it could have been the PAF officer who interrogated him said something like this. You give Pakistani establishment more credit than they deserve. In today’s day and age, more people have camera phones than those who don’t. I have seen videos of recent incidents made by locals before army got there. I don’t post such stuff simply because I don’t consider it to be ethical. Do you really think Pakistani army has such control over the locals that they cannot leakage of images from downed F-16 (per Indian media) but controlled everything in a place where 300-500 terrorists were killed. Is Pakistani army so efficient that they cleared the whole thing within 24 hours and BBC reporters only saw craters. I have no doubt you would have a counter argument, but you are adding credence to BRF claims that Pak army has djinn powers (pun intended).
The latest, I am hearing from India, is that some opposition figures now want Modi govt to show proof of those 300 dead. I hope you would join hands with them, because everyone deserves the truth. But this is what happens when you let senastionalist media take control.
vikasrehmanThe social media role in current Pak-Ind escalation has been very interesting. I hope scholars are keeping a close eye on it, and all major events will be dissected in the aftermath of it to learn some valuable lessons.
What I find interesting is how the electronic media is changing tone on a daily basis. Just now I have seen a clip on an Indian channel accusing Pakistan of breaking Geneva convention rules by releasing pics of the captured Indian pilot. Only 24 hours ago, the same channels were accusing Pakistan of lying and to show proof to the world that an Indian jet had been downed and pilot was in Pakistani custody.
Today, indian channels are showing some images claiming it to be that of downed PAF F-16. If true, this indicates Pakistan cannot control leakage of such pics. A couple of days ago, Indian media were claiming to have killed 300-500 terrorist, and their 5* facilities. Yet the Indian intelligentsia, as a whole, seems to have bought their sensation hungry media take on it without a question. On this very forum, we saw maps and pics of how the strikes occurred and what they achieved, without anyone bothering to ask relevant questions. Now imagine the destruction of 5* training camps and aftermath where 300-500 terrorists were killed. Was Pak army that effective in their clean up operation that nothing leaked out? But no one is bothering to ask any question. Is this not ironic, or is nationalism or patriotism meant to blind us from everything.
Yesterday some BBC Urdu site reporters visited Jaba, which was hit in Indian raid. As per their report, a local seminary close to a hamlet of 7 houses was hit. According to locals there used to be a training camp there in 2001, but was closed back then. If so, I think IAF was 18 years too late in striking it.
Having said the above, one can understand the importance of propaganda, and masses’ need to swallow it. What I have a problem with is when intelligentsia pretends not to understand it. I am sure people do, but for whatever reason, they get involved in its propagation. People claim to be ethical, but it seems morals and ethics also go down the drain together with the truth as soon as the first shot is fired.
Sign In
