vikasrehmanif purely $$ were the issue its a no brainer. but lets see how much PRC is able to armtwist the Ru….they might try for a tech transfer so that a “clone” can be fielded under another name.
It would undoubtedly come down to that…arm twisting.;)
these decisions are not based on single contract but overall beneficial relations like upcoming diesel submarine contract IN etc.
Please no politics/economic lessons now.:rolleyes:
vikasrehmanI doubt russia is afraid of India. It must be an ally thing
Thing is that ally thing is meant to work both ways. In other words, i think Russia would block the sale only if India is willing to give them MMRCA deal.
vikasrehmanYou might consider that if someone walks into Al Jazeera with a videotape or a CD that we won’t know what’s on it until it airs since, uh oh, we don’t interrogate and inspect everyone walking into a Qatari business like Al Jazeera!
Right. So such tapes are hand delivered by Al-Qaeda et al. messangers to Al-Jazeera TV station?:rolleyes:
vikasrehmanYou might consider that if someone walks into Al Jazeera with a videotape or a CD that we won’t know what’s on it until it airs since, uh oh, we don’t interrogate and inspect everyone walking into a Qatari business like Al Jazeera!
Right. So such tapes are hand delivered by Al-Qaeda et al. messangers to Al-Jazeera TV station?:rolleyes:
vikasrehmanIsrael should do as Distiller suggests, announce that they have nukes and deter any aggression from Iran. Everyone knows they have them anyway, there is no point having a deterrent if nobody knows you have it. Iran has as much right to nukes as anyone, but as it goes against their best interest, Israel and the US etc don’t have to like it and can make life difficult for Iran if they want to. The UN should only intervene if Iran is clearly planning to use their weapons, otherwise it is just acting as a US puppet, there is no way the west can criticize owning nukes, we invented them!!
Israel cannot do so primarily because of US aid it receives. If it was to do so, then (unless im mistaken) US would have to freeze all aid etc as her constitution demands…unless of course certain changes are made first, e.g. civilian nuclear deal with India. That a tacit understanding exists between US and Israel regarding latter’s nuclear capability is a common knowledge.
vikasrehmanAccording to Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov Russia has completed delivery of TOR-M1 surface-to-air missile defence systems to Iran.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070116/wl_mideast_afp/russiairandefence_070116161338
In total there are 29 missile systems, and we can safely assume that some of them would be deployed around nuclear installations. So, how would this change any Israeli tactics, if it comes down to an aerial strike?
vikasrehmanThe russians easily have the capabilities to field something that is physically and mechanically similar to the JSF or F22 in the next 10 years. (asuming you do not want a VTOL aircraft)..
the electronics can always be upgraded as and when needed.
As one of the posters of pointed out that goal posts have been moved since cold war. Im sure they would be moved even further in another 10 years time. I have absolutely no doubt about Russia’s ability to field something that is physically and mechanically similar to the JSF or F22 in the next 10 years. But would it be similar to present day F-22 or to the one we are likely to see in 10 years time???
vikasrehmanYou are assuming nothing has changed in 20 years.
The goal posts have moved. They would be very stupid to build a plane whose design and requirements were created in the cold war now. If they had rushed it into service in record time they would have a white elephant now. With each change in design some thing will have to go back to scratch, while other things can remain. What matter is that they work out exactly what they need and produce that.
I am clueless as to which part of my post gives you the idea that i am making such an assumption. I am merely saying that in spite of all hoo haa and articles stating this and that, Russia has not been able to field anything on the scale of F-22/JSF and that it would take them years before they could do so. Of course, goal posts have been moved and Russia might indeed be planning to field something even better than current F-22- say a 5.5 gen fighter. However, by then F-22 should be rather mature tech and its evolution would already be underway.
vikasrehmanHow long do you think the Soviets/Russians have been working on replacements for the Mig-29 and Su-27? Their requirements have very little to do with the US requirements for the F-22 or JSF.
For a long long time, and we are yet to see the results. Spin offs may have been incorporated into other machine, but im referring to a true 5th gen fighter on par with F-2/JSF. I remember coming across a lot of articles (a few years back) from various sources quoting Russian officials that their 5th gen fighter prototype would be flying by 2006 or so. Its already 2007, and to the best of my knowledge even the final designs have not been frozen let alone starting the first protype.
Whereas its logical to assume that Russians may not require as much time as it took US (for obvious reasons) to develop something on par with F-22/JSF, by the time it happens F-22/JSF would most likely be going through further evolution.
vikasrehmanAs has been repeatedly stated, Air Marshal MSD Wollen for instance, the original timelines were extremely unrealistic and partly borne out of inexperience. Given that, a more prudent (and realistic) estimate of 2010- and afterwards is sufficient to meet the project goals.
Whether those timelines were due to inexperience or incompetence, that is open for debate. However, i would like to comment that a number of people on this forum have defence LCA and other issues in a good manner- besides a few insults that were thrown around from time to time. These issues would continue to be discussed in future, and i certainly hope that when it comes to other international projects those of us talking of inexperience or unexpected developments etc would be as forthcoming in pointing them out as they have been here.
vikasrehmanConsidering the time it has taken to develop F-22/JSF, it would take Russian years before they could produce an equivalent. Of course, they could do it a lot quicker by downgrading the requirements.
vikasrehmanMulti-billion contract was also multi-faceted with issues like technology transfer for Al-31FP etc playing big role.
Even if original contract provided an upgrade plan, what if it can not be done?
And upgradation of original machines to final product was one facet. Wouldn’t u agree? Now if they signed the contract to do so and only realised after years that it’s not possible/feasible, it indicates that not enough work was done to start with, and hence incompetency.
Try to read between the lines if you can, if it was originally intended to upgrade the Su 30k to the MKI level, why in reality was the plan NOT carried out and brand new MKIs chosen instead?? Originally they had intended for a LOT of things including getting a bunch of Su 30ks apart from just the 18 (50#s IIRC) However, in reality they just decided to go with brand new MKIs instead. Ever wonder why?
Try me.
I would have to agree! Until the LCA is ordered in significant numbers and placed into service. I think you would have to call the program a failure……
I would have to disagree. As someone pointed out earlier, LCA has achieved one of its primary objective by helping to establish/strengthning aviation industry in India. Whether it would be successful in its second main objective, i.e. replacing Mig-21, only time will tell. However, it has failed in the sense that it was meant to have been in operational service years ago and it clearly is not. Regarding the numbers in IAF service by 2010, considering previous timetables and deadline, only time will tell.
vikasrehman1) Multi billion dollar contract covers much more than conversion of Ks to MKIs.
Reason y i used multibillion dollar term was to emphasise what is at stake. Such contracts are normally looked through thoroughly to the minutest detail before signing them.
2) Why would have IAF heavily flogged the airframes (as much as half of the airframe lives) if they were looking forward to K-MKI upgrade path ?
Does the original contract call for such an upgrade or no???
3) Did the offer to swap came from India or Russia? Why can not it be that Russians realised the problems with the upgrade path later on ?
Russia has also offered to swap Mig-25s for Mig-31 and etc. While its possible that Russians (with all their experience) didn’t realise how hard such a conversion would be, were the indians also as naive???
vikasrehmanAnd to emphasize it further you should also have pointed out that it was originally intended to upgrade the Su-30K to MKI standard.
Yes, at a point when not a single MKI Mk3 existed. The reality, as it developed, was different.
This is no argument. Although IAF started the purchase with simple MK1s, plans for MKI were most definitely there, and these original machines (different batches) were planned to be upgraded to final MKI standard at a later date. MKI was developed in accordance to IAF requirement, and i dont think IAF planners would be stupid enough to sign a multi billion dollar contract only to realise later that conversion of MK-1 to MKI is not possible.
vikasrehmanCan you take the stock Su-30K’s in IAF service today and convert them into Su-30 MKIs? And how feasible is it to do so?
Right…lets take a look at an article from BR, which talks about the original contract.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/index.html
Under the original deal signed, the first batch of eight aircraft (Standard Su-27Ks, also known as Su-30MK-Is) would be delivered in 1997 and would be used primarily for training purposes. The second batch of eight aircraft (Su-30MK-IIs) would be delivered in 1998 and would be fitted with Sextant Avionique’s avionics from France, liquid crystal multi-function displays (MFDs), a new flight data recorder, a dual ring laser gyro INS (inertial navigation system) with embedded GPS (Global Positioning Satellite), EW (Electronic Warfare) equipment procured from Israel’s IAI (Israeli Aircraft Industries), a new electro-optical targeting system and a RWR (Radar Warning Receiver). The third batch of twelve aircraft (Su-30MK-IIIs) would be delivered in 1999 and would feature canard fore-planes and the last twelve aircraft (Su-30MK-IVs, also known as Su-30MKIs) would be delivered in 2000 and would add the single-axis, thrust-vectoring AL-31FP turbofans. The first 32 aircraft delivered would then be upgraded to the Su-30MKI variant, in a phased manner.
So the first batch was standard SU-27SK (SU-30MK-I), second would have uprated avionics, while third would also feature canards and new engines. Please note that according to the above article these machines delievered in different phases were later to be upgraded to the MKI standard. To me it indicates that its possible to take up a SU-30K and upgrade it to MKI. Feasibility of doing so is a totally irrelevant issue. Of course, while it may not be economically feasible to upgrade SU-30K into MKI (or F-16A into F-16E) that was not the point. These are not new desings but upgrades based on their predecessors, and i would like to quote Dr. K G NARAYANAN (Former Chief Adviser DRDO & Director)…The Su-30MKI is considered to be the ‘ultimate’ evolution of the Su-27 originally developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau in 1982
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