vikasrehmanAnd I’m sure producing 36 J-10 in 2-4 years is not a problem, but the issue is whether or not plaaf would allow CAC to produce them for PAF when it could be producing J-10s for itself.
I can see your point, but let’s take a look at some facts.
1. Back in 2004, PAF high command stated in an interview with AFM that J-10 is available to PAF and that a team would be sent to China to evaluate this fighter.
2. President Musharraf became the first foreign leader to inspect J-10.
3. Back in Apr 2006, Pak cabinet authorised PAF to start negotiations for the purchase of 36 J-10.
4. Around Aug 2004, we learnt from a PA general that negotiations for J-10 purchase are underway.
5. In his latest interview PAF chief notes 150 JF-17 Thunders and 36 F-10A aircraft will also be joining PAF, and more F-10s can be expected. and that New as well as upgraded F-16s, F-10A and JF-17 Thunders are equipped with data links.. Please notice the lack of ambiguity in these statements. He seems to categorical in saying that 36 J-10 will be joining PAF and that more might join.
Having said all this, unless it is a part of some massive disinformation plan to pressurise US regarding F-16 sale or something of the sort, i suspect chinese hierarchy has already approved the sale of J-10 to Pakistan, be it with Russian or chinese engine. From what we know, a russian engine would equip JF-17. If so, what sort of objections are russian likely to raise when it comes to AL-31 in J-10?
As for what F-20 or any designation of J-10 means in PAF, let’s wait for more details to come out first.
For the first time, im beggining to suspect that this may be a reference to export version of J-11 in future. ACM referred to J-10 as F-10A, and it is reasonable to assume that twin seater version is more than likely to be named F-10B just like F-16A/B. Any further export upgrades of this machine are likely to be designated F-10C/D etc just like PAF operated F-7M/PG etc. FC-1 is the export designation for this fighter, and J-11 if ever exported may be designated a different name such as FC-20…unless of course PAF has knowledge of some secret chinese developments.
vikasrehmanI expect a much larger order will be made for the Tejas early next year at Aero India 2007.
Unlikely to happen before its clears IOC and FOC.
vikasrehmanlet me correct you here, if PAF wants J-10, it will EVENTUALLY get them. CAC can’t even produce it fast enough to supply plaaf. Even PLANAF can get a piece of J-10, how many J-10s do you think will be available for export in the next few years? Unlike JF-17, China is currently not actively looking to export this thing.
It seems they do want them. PAF chief sounds categorical when he says ‘150 JF-17 Thunders and 36 F-10A aircraft will also be joining PAF, and more F-10s can be expected‘. I assume that one only makes such a statement when the other side has agreed to supply.
PS. His comments regarding another chinese fighter ‘Most probably we will also purchase FC-20 fighter aircraft from China‘ are open to interpretation. Any comments? :rolleyes:
vikasrehmanMake that 2.
No point carrying this discussion any further.
But before i leave…a ukranian article sometime ago suggested that china had recently tested a J-6 prototype powered by Al-31FN engine, and were very happy with its performance. Now prove me or that article wrong. :dev2:
vikasrehmanIt would not be such as stupid thing if they just meant an interim engine, while the WS-10 was ready and if the engine allowed them to fly the aircraft to test other systems, like the EAP, Berkut and many other programs that did not fit the first prototypes with series engines but off the shelf.
What would u want to test with an air superiority fighter with a TWR of around 0.5 or so? While Tech demonstrators or prototypes have been flown using proven engine for obvious reasons, is there any precedent to such a joke (J-10/WP-13) in recent history? With SU-27 order, China could have easily obtained Al-31 by 1992, so why not wait a little longer and use this instead?
vikasrehmanLet`s make two differences, first the Russian account is clear a prototype was built at the end of 1993, this was powered by a WP-13, this aircraft resembled a agreat deal the IAI Lavi, the chinese found it was not satisfactory and they decided to fit the Al-31.
I am only a fighter enthusiast with no backgorund in aeronautics/engineering etc. Yet even i could tell u that a J-10 class fighter meant for air superiority is going to suck (and suck bad) with WP-13. If so, i just dont know whey those chinese experts did such a stupid thing.
vikasrehmanit does not make sense if the WS-10 fits well in the AL-31 engine bay in 2006 why they have to modify the engine bay back in 1993 when the Chinese decided to fit the Al-31 to their new J-10? i mean if in the first place the WS-10 was the original engine the J-10 would not have needed any modification at all
How about the possibility of modifying WS-10 to bring it in line with Al-31…possible or not? Unless im mistaken, RD-33 was modified per chinese requests to be used in FC-1…was it not? Finally airframe changes are not necessarily linked with engine changes. Just take a look at the difference between FC-1 PT04 and PT03/01, all of which use the same engine.
vikasrehmanRussian account says an aircraft was built powered by a WP-13, the other account does not say it was an aircraft but a mock up
Let me get this straight. So, according to russian account a J-10 prototype powered by WP-13 flew???
I said Israel built at least 60% of the Lavi they could passed that technology to China, re engine is possible, what engine was there before the Al-31? if the WS-10 was modified to fit the AL-31 size?
I would say that designing of an air superiority fighter (in 80s) around some American engine or WS-10 is far more plausible than low thrust WP-13. By the time J-10 entered test phase, AL-31 was available. OTOH, assuming Israelis did supply a Lavi to China, its likely they would have done so with the engines hence negating the need for WP-13.
why they will modifiy the engine bay to fit the AL-31 and later re modify it in 2006 to fit the WS-10? why they will enlarge the WS-10 to make it fit unto the J-10 modified engine bay for the Al-31?
As stated before J-10 was probably originally designed with WS-10 or an American engine in mind. When neither was delivered, chinese decided to use Al-31 which forced them to midify the original J-10 design. China has been working on WS-10 since, and has had enough time to modify the engine to bring it in line with Al-31 specs, which would negate the need for further modifications in J-10 when the time comes.
I say this because you have to ask your self if the WS-10 was the original engine envisioned it means the current J-10 will return to the 1993 prototype because once the WS-10 is ready the 1993 prototype has the right size engine bay
13 years is a lot of time to make changes to an engine. For example, LCA was envisioned around a Kaveri engine. Now we now first squadron would be delivered with GE engines and enough changes have been made to the airframe during this time. When Kaveri is ready, LCA does not necessarily have to revert to its original design…or does it?
vikasrehmanU keep switching between prototype and mockup. Please specify whether u mean ‘a J-10 prototype flew with WP-13′ or ‘J-10 mockup was built with WP-13’.
vikasrehmanCurrent J-10 is primarily for A2A role, and will need years to become a fully multirole machine in F-16 blk 50/52 category. PAF most likely would purchase J-10 at some point in future, but not in near future.
vikasrehmanWhat prototype in 1993? There was only a full scale mockup at the time.
PS. Your sentences are becoming less coherent, so please slow down. Please dont consider this an insult, i guess u r simply trying to post too many posts.
vikasrehmanAll the accounts of the J-10 claimed the Al-31 forced a modification of the engine bay but answer whan engine was there before the AL-31?
J-10 project officially started in mid 80s (85/86). Around the same time China decided to embark on Super-7 project with US assistance. US and China had rather cordial relations in those days, and unless im mistaken US and British companies were competing to provide engine and avionics for this project. China wanted higher thrust engine for its point defence J-7 fighter, and it would make a heck of a lot more sense to design J-10 (F-16 weight class air superiority fighter) with some high thrust American engine in mind rather than a low thrust WP-13 and then change the whole design to accomodate a much higher thrust engine at a later stage.
vikasrehmanthe R-13 and the AL-31 are not as different in size as you claim, few centimers no more than half a meter in length, less than 30 centimeters in width and less than 300kg in weight nothing that can not be fixed.
Of course modifications can be and probably have been made to accomodate such difference. But are u serious? I mean waving such huge difference off with ‘oh no problem…it will be fixed’ type of attitude.
vikasrehmanFlogger
If you go through the entire thread, i think u’d notice that no one is actually questioning the general notion of re-engining a (any) fighter. What most people are finding hard to digest is whether J-10 also went through engine conversion. I think we can all agree that conversion from WP-13 to Al-31 would require extensive modifications to J-10 airframe, which means quite a bit of time. So are there any photographs or other pieces of evidence which support this conversion??? And once again, what would China be trying to achive by flying a supposedly air superiority fighter with low thrust engine such as WP-13? Im sure u’d realise that unless one can provide credible evidence, a hypothesis remains exactly that…HYPOTHESIS.
vikasrehmanbroncho
PAF’s requirement for JF-17 is around 150, and if i remember corrctly first batch is for 50 with chinese avaioncs. As far as overall number is concerned, that depends on a lot of things including what else PAF gets in future.
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