troung…………
troung“So what. My tax dollars support a program to give away fighters. Yes allies need hardware, but there is a point where it isn’t a big help for the economy, it is corporate welfare.”
True that.
“The corporations and obviously congress certainly aren’t concerned about U.S. employment. Especially when you have 3000 + / – workers in turkey building F-16 components and Samsung does a big chunk of Korean F-16s etc”
True.
Hell but giving stuff away for free is a joke. If someone cannot even come up with the money to launder…excuse me spend… then they should not be able to get anything.
Cascading surplus equipment is one thing but building top of the line stuff at tax payer exepense for a foriegn nation is wrong on so many levels. Oh yeah and that goes for Egypt as well…
troung“How about MiG-21s (also flew by Soviet pilots) MiG-17s, and other variants of SUs and MiGs, that were the Soviet top of the line at the time?”
And what about the MiG-25PD/PDS, MiG-23MF/ML, Mirage F-1EQ-4/6s, MiG-21MF, J-7Bs…should I continue? So they took on far more modern enemies with the F-4 then the IDF/AF had to in 1973…
“Iran for example could easily buy Soviet”
Buying a modern multi role fighter in 1980 from the Soviets? Really that does not require a response.
“The Iraqi Air Force was nothing, and it proved it by being nothing at GW1”
They were very well equipped for the time.
I would also not compare a war which is measured in weeks to one that lasted 8 years.
The Iran Iraq war was I think the first time to sides armed with BVR missiles fought it out.
troung“From what I can gather the Q-5 is operated by China (PLAAF & PLAN), North Korea, Bangladesh, and Pakistan. Am I missing any nation?”
Burma has them on the books, I would not go as far as to say the fly them much…
Burma lost 1-2 last year in crashes….
troung“It would have made the plane compatible with the DASH, Python 4/5 and the Derby, so the resulting plane would have been better than your average F-16.”
Well you can fit the Python 4/5 and the DASH on really any F-16. The Derby might not be worth the drag compared with the AIM-120C.
“Perhaps the U.S. should remind the Israelis of that old saying about looking a gift- horse in the mouth. Maybe they should start looking elsewhere for their annual aid package.”
With the not so hot economy I would not mind cutting back on the annual aid package…
troung“It was a full scale war with our entire region against us and with full soviet supports, while we were unprepared, surrounded, surprised and under powered. If it wasn’t for the Phantom that bombed the Arab forces and shut down many fighter jets, Israel would probably lose the war.”
And Iran faced the very modern and well-equipped IrAF that had top of the line French and Russian equipment. If they had not had the F-4D/E/RFs their early counter air operations at the start of the war would probably not have gone off so well.
The IRIAF faced far more modern equipment in terms of enemy opposition (Mirage F-1EQs, MiG-25P/PDs and MiG-29As) then the IDF/AF did with the F-4D/E/RFs.
You can look at some very long-range ops the IRIAF launched during the war as well. The IRIAF used the F-4D/E/RF for air defense, escorts, long-range strike, anti shipping, close air support, battlefield interdiction, and recce.
I would say the IRIAF F-4D/E/RFs got a much better work out then the IDF/AF ones did.
troung“Well okay, the F-4 had action in other air forces, but I think it did its best in the Israeli Air Force.”
The USAF and IRIAF would disagree with that.
troungCan you please post the A-5 picture with the whole in the tail?
And the H-5 picture would be nice as well.
troung“suspect that the JF-17/FC1”
I have no idea why people write “JF-17” it would more likely be the F-17 for export and the J-17 for domestic. It is like typing in “JF-7PG” or “JF-6” or “QA-5” or even “HB-6D”.
“Comparing the amount of battle damage a Fantan can take to the amount an FC-1 can deal with is like comparing the amount of damage an A-10 can take as opposed to an F-16.”
Not even close. In fact the A-5 to my knowledge has never received battle damage. The A-5 has not been used in heavy combat, in fact other then rumors of bombing NA troops in Afghanistan it has never done anything. Burmese, Bangladeshi and Chinese A-5 have not gotten to prove how “damage resistant” they are.
“First off, at no point did i say a cockpit upgrade was necessary. German F-4’s were upgraded to be much more capable and the received what would be considered minor cockpit upgrades (as opposed to going to a glass cockpit like the EPA’s F-4E PI 2000’s).”
Comparing the German and Greek work on F-4E/Fs and the A-5s limited upgrade potential is a huge stretch. The upgraded F-4E/Fs have more uses then the A-5.
“I think with some updates similar to those on Chinese Q-5’s the PAF’s A-5’s would be an effective tool for waging a war against Indian ground forces.”
The A-5 would lack in range, payload, safety and agility compared to the FC-1. The FC-1 could probably take up 2,000 pound bombs much easier then the load restricted A-5C. I doubt the A-5C could even take up a Mark 84. The FC-1 is supposed to take up at least 8000lb of external ordnance, which happens to be almost twice as much as the A-5Cs 4,400lb load. The A-5 is not known for being pilot friendly in flight performance either and I have heard that the 7th squadron was disbanded due to the losses of the A-5C.
“As far as the IAF is concerned, troung which attack aircraft do you know that is going to charge at the enemy without being properly escorted or by having air superiority already achieved?”
But say a bomb laden FC-1 would be able to have greater SA and such over an A-5. The FC-1 is going to have a decent sized radar unlike the A-5. Mind you the Mirage 5EFs came very close to taking the A-5Cs out of service which likely would have been a good decision to have found more Mirage 5s and ditch the MiG-19 based A-5C.
“The FC-1 is NOT the A-5’s replacement. It is the replacement for the J-7.”
Actually the FC-1 kind of is the replacement for the not too terribly popular A-5C.
This is like arguing the virtues of the F-100 over the F-16…
troung“I think PAF has french Thales laser targeting pods for F-16A?”
Yes the PAF uses the ATLIS on thier F-16A/B Block 15s and thier Mirage 5EF ROSE IIs. Those are the main strikers of the PAF (well the Mirage 5EF is much more likely to be striking then an F-16A/B Block 15 in PAF service).
I would assume if a PAF J-7PG had to drop a LGB it would rely on “buddy lasing” by an F-16A/B Block 15 or far more likely a Mirage 5EF using the ATLIS.
troungI would think the A-5s would be among the first to go of the current PAF when the FC-1 enters service. The A-5 is the least capable plane in the PAF and not exactly the safest to fly either. The A-5 like the J-6 (MiG-19) is not easy to fly or keep in the air (that goes for everyone not just the PAF). The FC-1 could likely take up a similar air to ground load and be safer then trying to send an A-5 to bomb an Indian convoy defended by SAMs and of course the InAF. The FC-1 would likely be easier to fly, safer to fly and more agile at low levels. It would also have a better view out of the cockpit and likely better range. Upgrading the A-5 would be a waste of scarce resources with a better platform coming onto line in the next few years.
troungThe Mirage 2000 family are the best looking fighters in the world. The whole world…..
troung“What’s the biggest differences between the F-16I and i. e. the F-16C Block 60?”
The F-16I is an F-16C/D Block 50/52+ like the Greek one. It would be like naming the Greek F-16C/D Block 52+ the F-16H (Hellinic) or F-16G (Greek).
The F-16C/D Block 60s of the UAEAF carries a newer radar (APG-80) and an IRST unlike the F-16C/D Block 50/52+s. It is more modern and expensive then the F-16C/D Block 50/52+s.
“I suppose the US tax payer will pay for the 102 ( ?? ) F-16Is?
Waste of money, spend it on your own folks.”
Don’t have a choice…I mean we really don’t have a choice…really…
“You haven’t posted any in what seems like ages.”
Well once they finish getting rid of them there will likely be a special on them 😀 .
“Is she already gone from the inventory completely?”
Well it will be soon, all of the things it can do has been taken by newer more modern planes. As soon as more F-16s so up the F-4E is gone…
troungFor all weather strike the ball is currently in the F-16s court because of the JDAM, but the AASM is coming into service this year so that would even things up. I would say the all around for dropping bombs the F-16 has some edges in carrying more bombs over a better range. The range on a Mirage 2000-5/9 would go to hell carrying 2 2000lb bombs and 1 fuel tank while the F-16 can do 2 2000lb bombs and carry 2 fuel tanks (or 3 depending on the SAM threat). With 500lb LGBs both are similar in load outs. The Mirage 2000 does have the APACHE and SCALP EG which are great stand off missiles. Still in air to ground it could be very close as both can carry similar loads (the M2K5/9 would carry one more MICA (3) on LGB strike then the F-16 with the AIM-120 (2)). Two very close planes but the F-16 might well be the better bomber.
Well four nations use them as a team (Taiwan, Egypt, Greece and the UAE)…
troung“i’m a bit ignorant on this, but does either of those two have Anti-shipping capabilities?”
Well the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2/9 can use the AM-39 for anti shipping and the F-16 can use the AGM-84. The M2K9 can fire two AM-39s at two widely separated targets. Don’t know about the multi targeting on an F-16 for anti shipping missiles.
“Why don’t we ask the Greeks? They bought M2000-5 and F-16 block 52+. They should already have evaluated both types.”
The ROCAF uses the F-16A/B Block 20 for strike and the Mirage 2000-5EI/DI for air superiority and air defense.
“What are the major differences between the 2000-5 and the 2000-9 and also is the 2000-9 in service anywhere?”
The Mirage 2000-5 uses the RDY and the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 and Mirage 2000-9 use the RDY-2. The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 and Mirage 2000-9 are multi role and the Mirage 2000-5 is more of an air defense fighter. The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 and Mirage 2000-9 are basically the same platform.
“M2k includes Kosovo, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, etc..”
Add the Kargil and the Aegean.
It’s a close call.
But the only time they have fought the Mirage 2000E did kill a F-16D.
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