troungI would love to find out how the Rafale C would compare with the F-15C for the air superiority mission.
Well not really as much a versus line up as opposed to which one is better for the air superiority role.
In terms of air to air loads the fighters carry similar loads with the F-15C carrying 4 AIM-120/AIM-7 and 4 AIM-9/Python 3/4 (or 6 AIM-120s and 2 WVR missiles) and the Rafale carrying 8 MICA EM/IRs. It’s probably to early to compare the combat proven AIM-120 family with the MICA EM as the MICA EM has not seen live combat as of today but the missile should be on the same level as the AIM-120.
In terms of range both fighters have a very good range and can use CFTs to enhance the range further.
I have no figures on which one turns better but these days turning is not as important as shooting the other guy down at a distance at BVR or off bore site with WVRs before the other guy can get into a position to shoot back.
Up close the Rafale does have the advantage of an IRST which would allow it to passively track an enemy plane without turning on it’s radar. The F-15 lacks such a system. Both fighters use data-links and are to work with AWACs.
troung“but then again the Su-30 don compromise any internal fuel for that 2nd seat and that’s not the case with any other a/c … let alone Rafale”
But those Rafale Bs can and do sport CFTs, which enhance the range.
“And so does MKI have IRST, and even the Older Fulcrum-A’s that IAF use can integrate the radar and IRST information”
I know, that was in response to someone saying the Rafale lacked one.
“it depends on what u want to believe…..h come u take that MKI don have stand-off ability or all weather capability??…. “
The Su-30MKI does not have GPS guided bombs like the AASM and the Rafale has the longer ranged SCALP EG as compared to the Su-30MKI which longest-range ground attack weapon is the Kh-59ME.
“not just coz these don have combat records does not mean they can’t do combat thats just plain BS.”
I want to see the R-77E and such in combat before I judge them better then a comparable generation missile.
“wud u like to give an example as to the trustworthy abt the French (not that I don trust , but ur bias against the Russian’s)”
The French have put many very reliable and top of the range weapons into service, the Su-30MK family might be the first top of the range plane Russia has exported. It’s not a bias it’s the fact most Russian equipment in spite of the hype fails to add up. The Flankers seem to be good systems and could very well break the trend.
“well I see no reason as not to pick the MKI on technical front, MKI offers the same level of what Rafale offers if not better …at les than half the rate , and I’d choose MKI to built up my AF rather than wasting $$ on Rafale for half the amt of a/c that the same pocket can get hold on if it were MKI ……after all numbers do count very much”
I guess it would come down to the nation wanting the planes. Money and infrastructure are highly important and a nation that uses Western weapons would likely favor the Rafale as compared to a nation which uses Eastern weapons.
“And I don see any good reason as to Y the rafales shud be considered for IAF .. better send those extras on more a/c and support a/c ……and that’s the case with other AF too..”
I don’t see any reason why they would buy the Rafale either unless of course they wanted to keep them out of Pakistani hands (doubtful Pakistan could afford Rafales anyway) or if they wanted a Western fighter to team with the Su-30MKI (doubtful due to cost). I’m not bashing the Su-30MKI or India I just would like to wait and see how it’s weapons work before really judging it.
troung“How do both a/c stack up against each other in both the air to air as well as the a/g role.
I know it seems kinda silly for the IAF to think about going in for both aircraft but wouldnt it be great to have both.(Money as well as politics is a big factor here )”
For air to ground the Rafale is to carry the SCALP EG (155-mile range), APACHE (80 mile range), ASMP-A nuclear cruise missile (150+ miles), AASM GPS guided bombs, AS-30L laser guided missile, Paveway family LGBs as well as the famous Exocet and possibly the PGM-1/2/3 TV/IR/Laser guided weapons. The Su-30MKI does not come close to the stand off ability or all weather accuracy of the Rafale’s large and varied arsenal of weapons. The Su-30MKI is going to carry such weapons as the Kh-59ME (50-60 miles), Kh-31A/P, Kh-29L/T, KAB family guided bombs (TV/Laser/IR) and possibly/likely one day the Brahmos.
Air to air is more an unknown simply because we would have to take the manufactures word on either (of course the French are more trustworthy then the Russians). Also it would depend on how well the weapons (MICA EM/IR and R-77E/R-73E) do in combat. I would wait on the air to air until both start making kills or at least playing with each other.
“The N011M can track 20 targets and engage 8 of them simutaneously,the RBE2 can track only 8!Another advantage the SU-30MKI enjoys is it’s IRST.”
The RBE-2 can engage 8 targets at once using the MICA EM while tracking 32 others for a total of tracking 40. And the Rafale has an IRST.
“Workload is shared between the pilot and navigator which is another advantage of the MKI(especially in strike roles).”
The same can be said of the Rafale B.
“If both these a/c enter service with the IAF,they will be carrying each other’s weapons in no time enhancing each other’s capabilities.Both can carry around 9000 kg of external stores.”
It would be scary to face a nation with the Rafale B and Su-30MKI backed by AWACs. That could more then ruin someone’s day.
From a tech angle I would pick the Rafale but if money was a huge factor as it often is, I would go for the Su-30MKI becuase it is cheaper and the two planes will be very very close all around.
It would be lovely/scary to see them as a team as in the Su-30MKI on CAP and the Rafale on strike which would make a deadly team for anyone to face.
troung“Well, if the H-2/H-4 are the Raptor-I/II, then Pakistan still has nothing related to a BVR air-to-air capability.”
True.
“And yet still nothing that says the weapon is in Pakistan.”
It’s not in Pakistan. Hell I would not call it a joint project, Pakistan will buy the missile to arm the FC-1 but has nothing to do with it, it’s like Israel buying the AIM-120 and calling it a joint program. The SD-10 is a Chinese missile that happens to use a Russian seeker and data link.
“H-1/2 are Raptor I/II and H-4 is either a MUPSOW or Darter-T. The point to note is thet why did they skip on H-3, ot is it something that hasn’t been publicly acknowledged yet.”
So now there is an H-1. Wow. (Sarcasm).
“Of this Raptor and MUPSOW news is true then they have acquired the following technolgies locally.”
Or just bought them off the shelf from South Africa in the form of the Raptor I/II.
troung“Exact range should not be a factor because Pak media gives usually inaccurate informations about ranges and other technical stuff but Muspow is there because of the guidance system as mentioned like datalinks, IIR, mid course updates etc.”
Exact range is the only data out. The ranges of the H-2/4 match the Raptor I/II.
The Raptor II also has a TV guidance with optional IIR with mid course updates and the Raptor I uses a data link. The Raptor I/II both have the option of using IIR sensors along with mid course updates which are stanard on both. So once again if it is anything it is likely those two.
troung“Check this website H-2 is raptor 1 and H-4 may be MUSPOW because only MUSPOW version TARGOS has IIR seeker which is mentioned with H-4 in the news report and definitely not AAMS”
The range on the Raptor II matches the stated range on the H-4. Both the Muspow and Torgos have a longer range then the one stated for the H-4. That counts them out.
troungA little speculation if you please…
The Raptor I was called the H-2 in SAAF service. I would lean to the H-4 if it’s real being the Raptor II. The ranges of the H-2 and the Raptor I are the same and the H-4 and Raptor II are the same. So it should not be to hard to figure out what they are if in fact the orgin is from South Africa.
The Raptor I has a 37 mile range, uses TV guidance and has a 3 meter CEP. The Raptor II has a 74 mile range using it’s rocket booster, with a GPS assited INS guidance. Both wiegh in at about 2100lbs which would make the only two PAF fighters able to hold them be the F-16A/B and Mirage III/5. So if this is true and I’m on the mark the strike ability of the PAF is now much greater then it used to be.
No flames!!!!!!!!
troung“The story is totally not helping to clear up… Those air defence mirages were also upgraded?~I thought the only upgrade sofar were ROSE and that meant retrofit of the strike element… here some text I found on the net… But still no pics…”
The Mirage IIIO was given the Griffo M radar and is an air defense fighter and the Mirage 5EF was given a FLIR and is used for strike missions.
“oki so can some one tell me why a Air to Air missile need to avoid radars?”
Its called the author probably has no idea what he is writing about.
troung“I still think that these are PGMS not BVR missle because Mirage is only used for this purpose.”
Isn’t think just so confusing? There are two types of upgraded Mirages in PAF service the Mirage 5EF, which is strike tasked and the Mirage IIIO that is air defense tasked.
For what its worth I would think the story is talking about some kind of air to ground weapon as well.
troung“No Offense was intended..If you felt that I in some way insulted you ..Then I am Very Sorry!!!”
It’s ok, no problem.
I guess everyone here will have to wait and see what the H-4 actually is. The author was so poor it could be anything South Africa has including the Muspow, Raptor II, R-Darter, U-Darter, Raptor I or some even the Torgos. Time will tell on this one.
troungOriginally posted by MiG_Master
The author seems not to abel to decide what it is. On second it could be the muspow the next they talk about the R-Darter and the next the U-Darter.
Why not at east put “Troung said this on ACIG at 12:51 eastern stanard time”?
troung“as far as I know R-Darter is upgraded form of T-Darter and other one is certainly MUPSOW.”
Maybe you should do a little more research on South African weapons.
“The author seems not to abel to decide what it is. On second it could be the muspow the next they talk about the R-Darter and the next the U-Darter.”
I said that on ACIG less then 30 minutes ago. I even misspelled the same fukking words.
troung“T-Darter”
Never seen one or seen any specs anywhere……
“R-Darter”
On paper I think it goes about 25 miles.
“MUPSOW!!!”
93 miles.
troung“Except for a few exceptions, owning and operating a MiG-29, is a red flag that your air force as a whole has problems all the the way accross the board: Funding, Leadership, Organizational Skills.”
Very true.
“And I suppose you’ve never heard of the Viet Cong.”
The Viet Cong did not win the war. In fact most troops that fought actually came from the North down the trail with thier units. The massive armor offensives in 1972 were not done by the Viet Cong but whole units from the North.
troung“Srbin would you care to explain to me why the Pakistani Air Force is even in that list.”
Yeah and he left of the ROCAF who today is far better equiped then the PAF will be when the 150 FC-1s show up.
Sign In
