troungWell air to ground is really no comparison. RTAF F-5Es have been used to drop 2000lb GBU-10s in actual combat. Each plane had 2 GBU-10s and 2 AIM-9s. The MiG-21 could not do that. The F-5E simply carries more ordinance to drop.
As for Iranian experience Iran flew the F-5E/F and then got some J-7Ns (J-7M). The IRIAF thought of it as a toy compared to the F-5E/Fs and found it harder to maintain as compared to their F-5E/Fs. Of course they had a big support structure down for the F-5E/Fs (even though sanctioned) and had thier arm twisted to take the J-7s from China. That’s just one nation’s thoughts. Vietnam thought the F-5A/Es were more useful then the MiG-21MFs for the air to ground role and used them to support the invasion of Cambodia. As far as others who have used them (Ethiopia, Sudan, Yemen) nothing really has come out on what they thought.
As far as combat between the F-5 and MiG-21/J-7 they seem to have broke a little in the F-5s favor in air to air battles but that could be written off for several reasons (pilot training and SA). Ethiopian F-5As shot down 8 MiG-21MFs in dogfights during the Ogaden but one could look at that as Israel pilots facing down Somalians (5 more are claimed as well). The F-5A seemed to have better SA then the MiG-21MFs over the Ogaden. They broke pretty well in the Iran Iraq war but on the other hand the F-5Es were normally used for CAS/BAI and the MiG-21MFs for AD one plane would generally be carrying bombs and the other missiles.
Me I think the J-7 looks better but would rather have the F-5E/F if I had to pick between all of them. It is a more capable attacker, probably safer to fly and niether owns the field in air combat.
“while the F-5E had the Bullpup radio guided misslie.”
F-5Es also have the AGM-65B/G.
troung“I’m curious about this continuous mentioning of the M2K-5 as a striker for the IAF, while the Mirage 2000-5 is a pure air-to-air machine. The RDY-radar-equipped version of the M2K ment for ground attack (with mapping and SAR modes on the radar) is the Mirage 2000-9, formerly known as Mirage 2000-5MkII.”
It does seem the Indians are planning for the RDY-2 equipped Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 and not the RDY equipped Mirage 2000-5. But then again you could use a Mirage 2000-5 for strike missions.
troung“also the fact that the apg-63 can itself be replaced by a similar Isreili radar system”
It uses the APG-67 not the APG-63 (used by F-15s).
GD;
“It was (and still is) nearly impossible before unless you’re close allies of the US.”
Well to even operate American planes you have/had to be a friend of the USA in the first place.
Most American sales are for influence as well as of course money to the companies and those companies then finance campaigns for their local congressmen who then lobby for more sales. And of course the taxpayers take the burden of these deals.
“If not, it would have been handed out anyone with US planes like Saudi Arabia and Egypt years ago, like the AIM-9s.”
“But now that I know you had entertained the thought of picking on me, I feel obligated to break your balls.”
😀 😎 😀
“Don’t forget the frigate they sold to Bangladesh.”
I had been mentioning South East Asia but thanks for reminding me.
It does make me wonder if they will market planes there like the KT-1 or A/T-50.
“I expressed a long time ago on this board that S Korea would hit the world’s military market like they did shipbuilding and automobiles.”
You’re not the only one that thinks that.
“In aviation, if there is one country that can push into the low end niche that China has built for itself, it will be th S Koreans. Imagine Western based tech at Far Eastern prices (well not Japanese prices.) This is one highly competent state backed with a formidable technical base.”
South Korea could really start to carve out a market in the region and across the world.
“SE Asia is an obvious place to start.”
Of course. The 18 patrol boats the Philippines were very low cost as a way it seems to open the Filipino arms market (along with the surplus F-5As). They are already making rather big sales/trades with Indonesia and of course are looking at Vietnam. If they can keep the price down on the A/T-50 it would make for a good sales pitch as well.
I tend to think they should also try and push their small arms in the region to compete with Singapore over sales to the TNI-AD and PhA.
“Of course, the Golden Eagle is first and foremost an advanced trainer. That’s where it’ll probably make most of its money and that’s the space where KAI will push it.”
Well until the F-50 is ready (or even if they go through with it) it will be a “light” striker and advanced trainer.
troungGD;
I never said Vietnam is a likely nation to get the AIM-120 for example (or Cuba, China, NK, Pakistan, Iran etc…). My point was the AIM-120 is not impossible to come by. Many people here seem to think it is impossible for many people to get cleared for it. Yes I am more then aware there is a long list that would not become AIM-120 users due to politics.
And I did not mean to pick on you.
“The hard thing for the T/A-50 is that it will have to compete against other western products in markets dominated by the US.”
I’m of the opinion they will also push it heavily in SE Asia. South Korea is moving to becoming a big arms exporter to South East Asia and has already sold trainers to Indonesia (KT-1B) and the Philippines and Vietnam have also checked out the KT-1B. They also have made sales of ships to the Philippines (Sea Killer and Sea Dolphin) and will be selling Indonesia to submarines in the next few years. They have exported the KIFV to Malaysia. Now I will not go off on a limb and say they will make jet sales to these nations but Korea does seem to have South East Asia in mind for marketing.
They would also do well to push it as an advanced trainer to Middle Eastern nations. I have no idea if any sales will be made but it will be interesting.
“Not all countries are willing to play ball or looking to play ball with the US. So there is, and will always be, a niche market.”
That is a given.
“And what would be considered “playing ball” for Vietnam so the AMRAAM could be released? Getting rid of its current government?”
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Of course I want to see if the F-50 concept sees the light of day.
troung“Unless the US starts passing out the AMRAAM, the FC-1 would be highly attractive because of this. Alan Warnes in the latest AFM said in an opening editorial that the FC-1 could revolutionize not only the PAF but other small air forces around the world.”
Well the AIM-120 is widely exported and even it seems Jordan will soon get it. Even with the recent Israeli lobbying Jordan is still likely to get the AIM-120. So lets be honest the AIM-120 is the most widely exported ARH BVR missile (Denmark, Thailand, ROC, ROK, Singapore, Israel, Greece, Turkey to name a few) in the world out stripping the R-77E (Russia, Malaysia, India, China, Peru) and MICA-EM (France, Qatar, ROC, UAE and soon Greece). So its hardly impossible for a nation to get as long as they play ball.
You have to be a special case not to get it or even not be on the waiting list. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are on the waiting list to be cleared and the RSAF has had their planes hooked up for the AIM-120. The three nations I doubt will get it of course are Indonesia, Pakistan and Venezuela. Even Thailand, Bahrain and Singapore have it. Chile will get it as will the UAE (in big numbers BTW). The AIM-120 in Malaysia seems to be being used as a carrot for an F/A-18F sale.
So for the topic;
Imma wait and see how it sells and not guess right now.
troung“think i’m the only one who’s pro-mirage 2000”
No not the only one 😉
troung…..
troungWolverine
Thank you.
Jai
Thanks for the data and pictures.
troung“I was so amazed that I did not had chance to take some pics. Love the country… Love the people.”
Glad to hear that 🙂
“I think it is a great development to see them upgraded in India. A very good high low mix with the flankers.”
While everyone loves new fighters giving the MiG-21s an upgrade like the UPG will save a lot of money. It gives a nice set of weapons on a rather limited airplane of course.
troungMostly drop dumb bombs, rockets and cluster bombs and shoot rounds off from the 30mm DEFA/ADEN cannon pod and do clear weather AD operations with the R-550 Mk.2. They are in theory able to take use of guided bombs of the Paveway II family. It could be nice for CAS if they would not be such easy targets for ANZA Mk.2s, Stingers, HY-5s and Mistrals.
Short of them getting in trouble in wartime they would be better served by using them in the training role. It’s kind of pricey to use to conduct CAS.
troungMunir;
Yeah the planes themselves should be in good shape (other then being left outside) but of course not all are needed to be in service and flying them would cost money for fuel, maintenance and crews.
I read some Russian article a while back, which stated that the MiG-21s in the best shape are in Syria and Vietnam.
troungWell it goes to show how silly some nations can be.
It’s like the gentlemen’s agreements to keep the Hawk 209s out of combat. If was silly to think they would not use a CAS plane they bought for CAS and was advertised to them as a CAS plane. Not like they face an external threat the UK would not complain about them fighting (look at their neighbors). And of course once they used them the UK government tried to deny they used it in combat over Timor, Aceh and Irian Jaya. It’s just silly. And then asking them to remove the planes looks even dumber because they sold them for that purpose. Talk about shooting your own foot off I would never buy a Hawk 200 to bomb my own people because I don’t want to hear people whine. And you can’t use a Hawk 200 for very many things other then attacking villages and CAS on poorly armed guerilla forces.
The same with the tanks, armored personal carriers, water hoses and artillery. They sell tanks designed/marketed for internal security and then try and pretend like they had no idea those would be used to crush rebellions and to act as “polling machines”. Dirty little secret during the 1990s the UK was the largest seller of arms to the Indonesian government. And mind you the Indonesians are the ones not signing more big-ticket deals in spite of what they have done the UK would keep selling. If they came up with the money for the EF-2000 the UK would lobby to sell to them.
Yeah the French, Americans, Russians, Israelis, Chinese and the rest all run similar deals with nasty countries (Burma, NK, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Uganda, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia under Suharto, Chile in the 1980s) but the fake whining from politicians is down to a minimum unless they plan to run real sanctions.
Its like selling crack to a junkie then complaining that he/she uses it or telling him/her not to use what you sold them. They know whom they are selling to in the first place and of course try and pretend like they had no idea what would happen then offer more weapons.
Of course the UK does not built very many types of combat airplanes so they have to be happy with who they get.
Sorry for the rant and I don’t mean to offend members from the UK or Indonesia just the dog and pony show does **** me off…
troungToo many planes not enough money and crews.
troungHarry
So India operationaly uses the Kh-31A/P, KAB-1500KR and Kh-59ME at the moment? And thank you on the including things I forget/did not know.
Indian1973
Thanks for the help.
troung“The Mirage-2000 enjoys/(ed) higher availability, serviceability and even the latest variants have mature avionics. The IAF wants a striker in particular and the Mirage seems to be the better choice.”
Good thoughts. 😉
I was trying to figure out the current InAF list of A2A weapons used by fixed wing platforms…
Guided Missiles
Sea Eagle
ARMAT
Kh-29T
Kh-25L/P
AS-30L
Guided Bombs
BGL-1000
Paveway II Mk.13/18
KAB-500KR
Unguided Bombs
SAMP-250
HSLD (DRDO made don’t know the size any help?)
FAB-250/500
ODAB-500
BETAB-250/500
ZAB-250/350
S-80
M-70
MATRA-155
UB-57-36
UB-57-16
BL-755
BAP-100
Durandel
Guidance Pods
LITENING II
ATLIS II
Have I left anything out?
I have read about the InAF getting Israeli guided bombs, does anyone know the model? I would assume either the GRIFFIN or LIZARD but can’t find what type.
Can anyone help?
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