troung“and waht would they use ASW helos for ??”
I mean it’s hard to have a wrong answer in a make your own air force thread, but also why would they need anti shipping planes? I guess shooting at small canoes in a small muddy river but that’s more a target for rockets, cannons or at the most a guided bomb. But hitting a wooden canoe with a AGM-84 seems like over kill…
Of course they do have some sort of huge lake/small sea in their own nation so they could play admiral sailing a carrier in the middle of their very land locked nation.
And of course the ASW would protect this carrier from the “imaginary” submarines that threaten their “imaginary” coastlines which would require an “imaginary” carrier to counter them.
troung“-Russian Option: Mig-29M1/M2 Fulcrum(AA, Anti-Shipping, Strike, Recoinassance, etc)(K/KUB Carrier Compatable) + Su-39 Frogfoot(CAS, Strike, etc) + Yak-130(Advanced Training, Helicopter Hunting, Light CAS/Strike, etc)
OR
American Option: F/A-18C/D Hornet(AA, Anti-Shipping, Strike, Recoinassance, etc)(Carrier Compatable) + AV-8B Harrier II(Limited Air Defense/Anti-Shipping, CAS, Strike, etc)(Carrier Compatable) + T/A-50 Golden Eagle(Advanced Training, Helicopter Hunting, Light CAS/Strike, etc)”
Why would Kyrgyzstan need aircraft carriers?
——————-
That said do I smell looking into a squad or so of Mirage 2000E/Ds?
It performs well high up, carries a good strike load and is well armed (Super 530D/R-550 Mk.2). Plus it is maintenance friendly. Maybe look into some Su-25K/UBKs for a ground attack mission. Get the LITENING II and LIZARD/OPHER guided bombs and fit them up on both the M2KE and Su-25.
That and leave the Mi-8s and Mi-24s around. Get soem more Mi-24s for CAS and AT missions along with some extra Mi-8s to support groudn troops and recover downed pilots.
Give the L-39s an Israeli update like Thailand and Cambodia did and fit them with the R-550 Mk.2. Maybe go after the EMB-312 for training and FAC roles. Scrape the bone yards for ex-USAF C-130 transports.
troung“the M2000 is only a dual role fighter, with a dedicated version for air to air like the Dash 5, and a dedicated version for strike like the D model.”
Kind of off on that actually…
Mirage 2000C/B = Air defense, limited air to ground (France)
Mirage 2000D = Strike (France)
Mirage 2000E/D = multi role (Peru, India, Greece, Egypt, UAE)
Mirage 2000N = nuke strike (France)
Mirage 2000-5 = air defense (France, ROC, Qatar)
Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 = multi role (Greece, possibly India)
Mirage 2000-9 =multi role (UAE)
troung“Does the MiG have some type of targeting pod (ATLIS (and other future pods) on Mirage 2000 and LANTIRN/Litening on F-16) that compares to those on the M2K and F-16. I’ve yet to hear of one, but then again I could be behind so if it’s got one I don’t know about please inform me.”
The Mirage 2000 family can also make use of the LITENING II, Damocles, and PDL-TS. And the F-16 has more LDPs it can use.
“PGM 500 and 2000? (Perhaps the KAB series in some format, but the Mirage also has various models of Paveway and BGL weapons at its disposal.)”
Don’t also forget the AASM that is entering service later this year. The Mirage 2000 can also use Israeli LGBs.
“{For example, what Fulcrum weapon compares to the Scalp EG stand-off weapon? What about the Apache?”
Nothing in the range of those two.
troungSu-27SK
troung“It’s you who obviously has’nt been reading through this topic. That report posted by SD-10 clearly says that the FC-1 is stealth and that pic posted by him also shows the stealth design which is probably for the final production variant. The only advantage the JSF has is it’s twin tail which is slightly tilted. I’m not sure what RCS the FC-1 will have but it should atleast be stealthy as a JSF if not more.”
5 bucks says “Munir1” is not from Pakistan.
troung“This is an interesting item. Either the F-16 are BVR capable now (confirming rumors of AIM-7s) or the Chinese/Pakistani feel they could upgrade the aircraft themselves.”
Oh this is very interesting…
I dunno, I’m on the fence about this being on the level. While it would be very neat to see an F-16A/B Block 15 in service with foreign beyond visual range weapons I’ll take this with some salt. The F-16 would need major work to be able to guide the SARH PL-11. The F-16 ADF does use a different radar (APG-66A) then the older F-16 Block 15s for this reason and of course needed a new AIFF system. The radar would need major work (kinda replaced when you think about it) and be able to actually guide in the SARH PL-11. The F-16A/B Block 20 also uses a different radar as well (APG-66 v 2) to provide CW guidance to the AIM-7Ms.
But that said it would be very interesting to see an F-16A/B Block 15 with PL-11s. That said might be smarter to wait for the SD-10 before ripping up the F-16A/B Block 15s trying to add BVR capability.
And of course this would add some flavor to the rather dull India vs. Pakistan debates.
troungViska;
Welcome here.
troung“Perhaps the term JBVR should apply best (Just Beyond Visual Range).”
More like outside of visual range. But I get the point.
troung“The FC-1 market is not those with access to American technology or those (like possibly in Egypt’s case) allied with the US to the point where American tech transfer is a possibility.”
True. I don’t see the FC-1 being able to market in nations, which are closer US allies. Its not as much about the just the plane but about influence and such.
“If Pakistan has a F-16 assembly line, they would be building F-16s instead of JF-17s in a few years.”
No doubt.
“I say everything is pointing to a FC-1 prospect that is about as “grim” as the K-8’s which had a similiar degree of disadvantage to a F-16-like world beater/standard bearer in its class, the Hawk.”
Well a lot of the K-8s success in Egypt can also be pointed to the fact the UK can’t “sell” the Hawk like the Americans “sell” the F-16. In other words all but giving them away. The K-8 has had respectable success on the export market with sales to various nations around the world. Granted Burma, Sri Lanka and Pakistan getting it are not surprises, the Egyptian sale was a case of good marketing.
“First by Pakistan and then from all the other countries that for whatever reasons are using Chinese equipment today.”
True. Some of the less aligned nations could take a very serious look at the plane. Generally the Chinese market to nations which either are trying for a cheap arms build up (Iraq, Sri Lanka, Pakistan) or don’t have many friends (Burma). I would not be shocked in the least at the Bangladeshi buy of the FC-1 and/or K-8.
“why shouldnt PAF lobby USa if it could possibly get few F-16s for free out of aid.”
Once again did I say anything was wrong with the PAF still wanting the F-16A/B? In fact it makes a lot of sense why they would still want the plane even now.
“SD-10 and troung, your two way nationalist bickering is giving me a headache”
Who is a nationalist? Not me.
troungH-117;
“So FC-1 with BVR makes perfect sense.”
I never once said the FC-1 was not a good thing for the PAF. In theory it will go a long way to improving their manned air defense force. I have to say “in theory” because it is still in testing and its too early to pass judgments on what it will do. I would say we will all know how it works once it enters combat which is where planes make (F-16, F-15) or break (MiG-29) their reputations.
“Still it is not included in the original cost.”
No duh. But that 15 million-dollar figure for the FC-1 does not take into account the radar or avionics used and of course not the weapons. The figure once the radar is picked out could go up.
“It is good unless you are distributing planes for free.”
You said “the rest of the world” the world is a big place that’s first off. And second off the F-16s are still making sales so are you mad that the USA can “cascade” older ones down to friends? Its kind of funny when you talk about customization and realize that the F-16 seems to be able to dominate most markets it is in competing in.
A rich nation like the UAE can get a tricked out F-16C/D Block 60/62 and a nation like Thailand with less finical assets can go for the F-16A/B ADF. The both feature the AIM-120 and can make use of guided missiles and bombs. That’s why the F-16 is the benchmark of the light fighter genre it seems to fit in everywhere very nicely. I don’t see the UAE, Thailand, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey (etc…) saying the F-16 is not more then good enough for their varied needs.
“So what about Europe.?”
The EAF already uses the Franco/German Alpha Jet and of course the British Hawk 100/110 costs more then the K-8E. So of course they went for the K-8E. Did I say that the EAF getting the K-8E was a bad choice?
“If Pakistan didnot got the BVR plane in first instance so whats the probability of getting now”
They will likely not get their F-16 fleet improved unless they ditch their nuclear weapons and other stuff. Its not going to happen, so nothing will happen on the F-16 front. That’s a fact of life.
Ah but comparing the FC-1 to the F-16A/C is silly as the FC-1 is still in testing and not even on the market or in service.
——
Well back to the original topic… if the BAF moves to a FC-1 and K-8 combo to fill their air defense and training needs respectively it will not be a bad move. Seeing as they are not faced with a massive external threat (probably not a safe neighborhood but not a massive risk of invasion).
I guess the success of the FC-1 in the BAF will be on how expensive it is to run for them and if they can come up with the money to keep it running. And of course it would have to be seen what type of systems they put into the plane. The K-8 would be fine to replace or complement their older jet trainers.
It remains to be seen what type of competition the FC-1 will face and how seriously would Western/Eastern nations take the competition.
“i get secerete info from my friend whom work in CAC,he said egypt is very nearing to place an order for about xxx JF17,and china &pakistan will translate product line to egypt.iran has behalfed huge intertesting in JF17 too,they may be purchase 1xx JF17,and build JF17 product line in iran,”
It remains to be seen how on the level this guy and his friend are. “Secret” info is the best kind because the defense of it is the fact that it is supposedly a secret.
GD my second favorite Chinese guy to talk to;
“Strictly preformance-wise, the FC-1 has no chance in beating out F-16s for the Egyptian market. But politics and the push for a homegrown industry could allow the FC-1 to win out”
True but also a factor would be on the cost issue, the fact their F-16C/D Block 42s are free as American aid and the FC-1 would cost money. But if say they went for the FC-1 that would be more a move to establish some sort of production line to boost their own industry (the K-8E is not the only plane they license built) and a way to get rid of some of the less capable planes (J-7B/MiG-21MF). Not moving away from American planes but succumbing to inside pressure to help out the internal air plane industry.
“The FC-1 could replace the several hundred Migs/J-7s and operate alongside the F-16 in a hi-lo mix. The F-16 is “low” only in the US.”
Its not several hundred MiG-21MF/J-7Bs more like less then 200 or 100 and something. The free availability of the F-16 caused them to cancel future orders for the Mirage 2000EM/DM. So if for some reason they bought the FC-1 it would be the F-16C/D Block 42, Mirage 2000EM/DM and the FC-1. It remains to be seen if the FC-1 could even fill their needs to warrant the cost of actually paying for a new type of non American fighter.
Huitong;
“Accoring to Pinkov, FC-1 has a pretty grim prospect on the international market …”
We will all have to see now won’t we…
troungH-177;
“Show me current news of whole cost. That was old thing. And missiles were not mentioned in that news.”
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2003/articles/oct_03/peace/
“The RTAF has purchased a limited number of AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles to be used on the F-16 ADFs. In addition to the AIM-120, the RTAF is considering the Israeli Python 4 short-range infrared-guided air-to-air missile for its F-16s.”
The AIM-120s came after the ADF deal.
“China is not interested in US F-15,F-16. When we already have FLankers and J-10. Only F-22 is of interest if they want to sell..”
You didn’t get that did you?
“For the rest of the world FC-1 is excellent plane”
For the rest of the world? Come on…
“So what about whole of Europe? If US does not have. Russia?”
Egypt no longer buys from Russia. The K-8E was the cheapest plane they could find to fill the jet powered basic trainer role.
“So you know thier industrial secrets that they are not working on something similar and will not produce any thing by 2006. China is working on IIR program to be ready in next few years. And this thing will be part of it. I am confident about it.”
An IIR program has nothing to do with a GPS/INS guided bomb like the GBU-31.
“Is Pakistan is getting AIM-120 F-16?”
No. They are likely not going to get anymore F-16s. Does not mean they are not still lobbying for the planes.
“Is Pakistan is asking for free or is willing to pay for upgrade?. And request seems to me is old and comments looks to me recent.”
They have been requesting them for years and still continue to request them. And they are willing to actually pay for them.
PS; If all of this is new to you why did you bother to agrue in the first place?
troung“You can judge from this that this Aircraft is for every one except if some body does not want it.”
Maybe you don’t get what I said but think about it this way, how happy would China be if FC-1s found their way to America or better yet J-10s showing up in American?
“They could have asked from US for free but Chose to spend money on China trainer.”
To be honest the USA does not offer modern basic jet trainers. The jet trainers the USA offers are the T-38 and T-37. A modern jet powered basic trainer was something Egypt would have to pay for from some other nations anyway.
“Why all the nations of China, Russia, France, Israel, Italy, South Africa cannot make them by 2006? If it hadn’t do so by now.”
Russia, China, Italy and South Africa don’t have any real work going on it.
“It is the price of non-upgraded old stuff.”
That’s the price of an AIM-120B/AIM-7M capable F-16A/B ADF.
“Where is the link of recent request?”
“U.S. officials said the new classification will not affect Pakistan’s long-stalled bid to buy sophisticated F-16 fighter jets. That request currently is being reviewed as part of a military package.”
http://www.web.mid-day.com/news/world/2004/march/79201.htm
“Pakistan is hopeful it may qualify to get F-16 aircraft”
http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-564148,prtpage-1.cms
“The US has not taken any decision to sell the sophisticated F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan , Secretary of State Colin Powell said Tuesday.”
Older buy this shows the continued interest in the plane…
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2003-daily/19-08-2003/main/main3.htm
“Belgium officially confirmed on Monday that Pakistan has made a formal request to provide up to two squadrons of F-16 fighter planes and the Belgian defence ministry, in its initial response, seems “inclined to oblige Pakistan by providing the required number””
troung“You haven’t given me the link for price tag of Thai F-16?”
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct1999/m10291999_m168-99.html
“The Government of Thailand has requested a possible sale of 18 F-16A/B Block 15 ADF aircraft including two non-flyable Block 10 OCU aircraft, two Pratt and Whitney F-100-PW-220E spare engines, spare and repair parts, devices, support equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $157 million.”
That was 5 years ago. And my mistake it was closer to 10 million a plane.
“Pakistan is aggressively after FC-1 infact they have increased commitment to 200 FC-1. I just read.”
And yet they are still actively lobbying for the F-16A/B Block 15. Go figure. They are still asking for it after being repeatedly rebuffed. So they are aggressively after the F-16 even now.
“Avionics can be added to any Aircraft any time. hardly a plus point.”
Those are hardly things you can get on a FC-1. The F-16A/B MLU-M3 which is coming on line this year will have the JHMCS and the JDAM.
“Thats what i wanted. Complete agreement with my poinf of view.”
I had said that like 2 posts ago. And that’s not just your point of view. You didn’t convice me of that point.
There are of course some countries who might pick up on the plane like say Syria or who knows North Korea. Of course thats all speculation if the plane gets sold.
“Does the above countries export their planes from their production lines. Certainly not without US permission.”
You can flip the script and ask how much Russia supports a second hand user to their planes who do not clear it through them. Of course a nation which license builds planes needs US clearance to sell them, that’s so the planes don’t say show up in Russia or anywhere else the USA does not want them show up in.
But Egypt did get a number of F-16s of Turkish production lines.
troung“I get your point about the spirit of fair play in such deals, but I still think we aren’t right for using our economic and political situation to exploit open worldwide competitions like this, if that is in fact what’s going on. The buyer should have the ability to make their own choice of their own free will.”
The way I see that is as a fact of life. Everyone does that. In the perfect world all of these planes would fight it out showing off which one dogfights better, is able to win a BVR engagement and is the more capable striker an so forth but that’s never going to happen so it’s the pressure which wins these deals.
If it was perfectly fair it would not even be a story and the AF would pick which one they wanted and that would be the winner, not who offered more for the space program. But in the end arms get twisted and pork barrels get stuffed. There is nothing fair about it.
I can’t wait to see which plane wins.
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