Generalization like what?
Remember these?
The JSOW also uses GPS, which can be jammed, and the F-35 cannot get accurate GPS coordinates at that kind of range. The JSOW C uses a penetration warhead. Even if you use it, it is likely to be shot down. You’d have to use several missiles for a strike to have a high PK.
It is not stealthy so it would be shot down most probably.
It will either have to enter at low altitude or it will need some help from aircraft with NGJs.
They are claims that are no more valid than someone claiming that the F-35 could fly right over a S-400 system and not be detected- pure conjecture.
So what other targeting method do you expect to use? At long range of course. And be precise, which variant of which weapon.
Not really interested in hypotheticals. Weapons are tailored to the target. What type of target? what range? deliverable from what platform? Your assuming GPS jamming completely negates use of GPS guided munitions (see above about making blanket statements)
Considerable work has/is going into developing families of weapons with a variety of guidance methods, so in the event an adversary could “shut off” GPS use entirely, stand off attacks are still possible:
SDB-II has a tri-seeker, Raytheon has both a homing and active seeker proposed for TLAM, Boeing has developed a IR seeker with image matching for the JDAM. AGM-154’s modular design allows for INS, GPS, and IIR (in the case of the c), the tests of the -ER, with the bolt on turbojet, were successful. If the need arises, JSOW variants can be produced with both longer range and active guidance.
So it can loiter. That makes it even easier to shoot down.
See above about making simplistic comments, again. Is it really so easy to shoot down a TLAM? Most shoot downs have been from TLAM programed in stream attacks (multiple missiles flying the same route). I would say that a proper attack with TLAMS coming in from different directions would be very hard to defeat. Even if a few are shot down, at a unit cost of roughly a half million dollars, it is cheaper than developing a new supersonic, or VLO cruise missile.
Nothing better than the TLAM will be available before about 10 years. They will probably go for something larger that a JASSM/LRASM to replace the TLAM and something probably much faster. There is no surface launched variant of the current LRASM in the pipeline with a dual land/anti-ship capability.
Did you read what I wrote about NGSC? look up the requirements. The requirement may end up being met by a variety of weapons, and there is no guarantee that the LRASM go ahead as OASuW Increment 2 (considering the merge of requirements with NGSC). The LRASM will be dual capable in it’s surface launch iteration. Whether it is chosen as the sole weapon to meet the NGSC requirements is a different story.
Range supposedly being a factor that would discount the LRASM meeting all NGSC requirements (but as Lockheed has pointed out, the increment 2 LRASM does not yet exist). One of many weapons (including a new Tomahawk) could be purchased in conjunction with the LRASM increment 2, to fill long range land attack needs.
some things for you to read
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2003-10-21-Boeing-Receives-Contract-For-JDAM-Targeting-Upgrade
http://www.defensetech.org/2014/03/03/tomahawk-re-routes-faster-to-hit-moving-targets/
http://aviationweek.com/defense/lockheed-pushes-lrasm-navy-looks-rearm
You should say that to F-35 fanboys who discount any counter stealth capability and who believe that its stealth makes it litteraly unbeatable in any circumstances.
When deriding other posters as “fanboys” it helps when your own posts are factually accurate. Making broad, sweeping generalizations is, well, rather fanboyish.
Even if GPS works, you still haven’t solved the problem of getting the GPS coordinates in the first place, at long range that is.
Well, as I wrote in previous. GPS is not the only targeting method available, and that was a succinct overview.
You assume that the TLAM seeker would work against ground targets. It’s primary role is anti-ship. Even at that, the TLAM would have to loiter for some time to find the target. It is not stealthy so it would be shot down most probably.
The LRASM is an anti-ship missile. Maybe it could be programmed to have an anti surface capability, but its range is limited ( around 400km ). Some people in the USN have suggested decreasing its warhead to increase its range and to use it as an anti-surface missile, but it doesn’t seem to be a concrete path, as the Navy continues to invest in TLAMs and in its successor that won’t be available for about 10 years.
TLAM = Tomahawk land attack missile. It’s primary role is land attack. The recent modifications make it dual capable. The TASM (Tomahawk anti-ship missile) was withdrawn from service. Yes, the improved TLAM block IV can, in fact, loiter.
The improved Block IV has capability against land and sea moving targets.
http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/tomahawk/
LRASM program has several increments. The initial AGM-158C will fill the air launched portion. The sea launched requirement for OASUW increment 2 was not planned until 2020’s (since modified into the new NGSC- dual land and sea capable). NGSC has the LRASM increment two in competition with future Tomahawk variants. Not to mention that Raytheon plans to backfill the improved block IV capabilities as a gap filler.
Stealth will be useful but it will not be fullproof, especially for initial strikes against an advanced IADS. There is a difference between being usefull and being sufficient on its own all the time. Again the fact that the F-117 was escorted on some missions by EF-111s during GW1 is a good example
Ok, first it would seem that you’ve not really read the response posts or followed what the USAF/Navy have been saying about countering anti-access systems. Your making silly generalizations like:
being sufficient on its own all the time
That has not been the way ANYONE plans or has planned to use LO assets since the 90’s. The mindset seems to be “Stealth isn’t invisible to radar, now these aircraft need to rely on support aircraft”. Well, other than the press oversimplifying the attributes of LO aircraft following the Gulf war and subsequent actions, most everyone in the military or defense establishment were well aware that stealth does not mean undetectable.
It is hard to say which one has the best range, given the fact that it depends a lot on the launch parameters. Against moving targets the SDB2 might have a shorter range than if it is used against a fixed target.
The JSOW would be less accurate using INS guidance if GPS is not available.
If it were true that INS backup was the only option to counter GPS jamming, but it isn’t: Rockwell Collins has developed digital multi channel antennas that make jamming/spoofing GPS signal much more difficult, not to mention that localized GPS jamming can be targeted with the development of HOG-J seekers. Not to mention SDB-II has a three mode seeker (optical, laser, and millimeter wave seeker).
Good luck with that if the radars move and if the datalinks are jammed. The TLAM and CALCMs are not sufficiently stealthy so forget it. And the TLAM, CALCM and JASSM have no terminal seeker suitable for that role. Can you tell me exactly which variant of which missile you would use?
Um, the block IV can and has hit moving targets (it has been tested as a LRASM entry).
Swerve, how many times the Russian military (or civilian) aircraft violated the state border of the United States in 1946 – 1991?
offtop finished
Really? If you are so indignant over US violations, it is time to do homework. Where would Soviet and (now) Russian aircraft have access to violate US and Canada sovereign airspace (remember they operate as one, remainder of NORAD)?
The answer…. All the time over the Canadian Arctic and over the Aleutians. Before you point fingers at those capitalist aggressor pigs from the west, know you facts. Both the U.S. and Russia (and the former USSR) skirt and yes, sometimes violate (especially in contested areas like the Kurils) each others airspace to test reaction times and snoop. The history of the U.S.S.R, in shooting down any plane (justified in the case of some RB-66 and U-2 flights) that violated sovereign airspace, even after it left, is not a particularly bright spot for current Russian history and it was in poor taste to bring it up.
Get used to the fact that it is a common occurrence for surveillance flights to snoop along a nation’s borders, I don’t recall the U.S. acting in an aggressive manner to Tu-95 flying cruise missile flight profiles off California nor buzzing Tu-160’s during their “visit” to Venezuela (BTW, here’s a test who’s airspace did those Tu-160 violate without permission?) Ok, Ill give it away:
https://theaviationist.com/2013/11/06/kfir-tu-160/
thank goodness not everyone is so trigger-happy, huh?
Or these:
https://theaviationist.com/2013/06/13/finland-tu-22/
https://theaviationist.com/2013/08/22/tu-95-airspace-violation/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/7/russian-bombers-penetrated-us-airspace-least-16-ti/
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/russia-violates-u-s-airspace/
https://theaviationist.com/2015/11/29/russian-intruding-israel-airspace-turkish-greek-one/
http://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/medialibrary/2015/03/11/4264a5a6/ELN%20Russia%20-%20West%20Full%20List%20of%20Incidents.pdf
near collision:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2857602/Too-close-comfort-Norwegian-fighter-jet-captures-hair-raising-moment-nearly-collided-mid-air-Russian-MiG.html
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/russia-flies-provocative-aerial-operations-2014-11
Just one addition- for those who think that this is not relevant to RuAF thread, I would argue otherwise. The real events happening are of far more relevance than arguing the performance specs of this or that missile or comparative fighter performance. The rise of tensions between U.S., Russia, Baltic Nations, et al. is a real step backward.
Here’s an article on the subject.
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You do realize that is the same article loke posted from national interest. The veracity of the “analysis” interjected by Osborn in between the quotes from Winston about the NGJ are questionable. If you notice, none of the quotes from the actual EW officer or Raytheon official support Osborn stating that “modern air defenses, such as the Russian-made S-300 and multi-function S-400 surface-to-air missiles, will increasingly be able to detect stealth aircraft at longer distances and on a wider range of frequencies”
Notice the “will” in that. There is no doubt that advances in powerful digital processors increase the accuracy and offer clutter reduction in low frequency radars. They most certainly can, in ideal conditions, detect LO aircraft from tactically significant distances (and track at longer ranges than mid-band).
The one trillion dollar question is how consistently can the track (in hostile EW conditions, less than idea atmospheric conditions) and direct targeting radars against LO targets.
While some act like low frequency radar utility for detecting low RCS targets is new, there were scholarly papers published in the 1980’s. The USAF studied the issue (and that’s all they will say). Yet from the F-22, to the SH, F-35, B-21, various drones…. they continue to invest in LO airframes. A discerning mind would conclude that low frequency radars, systems like the s-300 that uses arrays operating in several different frequency bands, are not a panacea. While the days of operating “stealth” aircraft unprotected and unsupported over hostile territory may very well be over, I do believe we have a few more decades before radio/micro wave LO is completely obsolete.
A peeping tom , using high power binocular to watch his neighbour’s daughter from across the street , is still a peeping tom :rolleyes:.. no matter what kind of excuse he gives. /s :p
Not interested in breaking down the analogies with you. The analogy was to illustrate that it is not against international law to be snooping, so long as the aircraft are in international airspace. The point is simple, you viewed the US P-8 observing Russian naval units as some sort of provocation. The precedence of MPA shadowing task forces and maneuvers goes back to before WWII. Russia (and the USSR before it) does this, the U.S. and other NATO nations do this.
Furthermore, ELINT aircraft skirting a nation’s borders in international airspace is also a well established practice. QRF aircraft go up to escort back away from protected airspace (Russian bombers paid the US west coast a visit last 4th of July). Safety protocols have been practiced in the past:
No unnecessary provocative actions (radar lock-ons, buzzing, warning shots)
Staying clear of live fire exercises
No intentional incursions into territorial waters (except for “innocent passage” clause in laws of the sea)
No intentional incursions into sovereign airspace
The recent actions in the Baltic by the Su-27 barrel rolling over the RC-135, and the buzzing of the destroyer by the Su-24’s are unnecessarily provocative. An accident would lead to an international incident that would sour already poor relations between the two nations. Not to mention the high level of unease in some parts of Europe right now.
The F-35 will perhaps be easier to detect in the not-to-distant future than some F-35 fanboys want us to believe?
Dumb comments like this are better left to YouTube posts. National interest=sputnik news. Of course advances in phased arrays, processing power have evolved to better counter LO designs. What does not change is that LO designs can shrink engagement envelope and coupled with EW systems like the NGJ, they are very hard to counter. Time to start looking at LO designs as a starting point for all future platforms rather than a niche specialty.
Addition- Should qualify the above to say “looking at LO designs as a starting point for all future platforms rather than a niche specialty if you want to have deep interdiction/penetration capability”.
And some such as yourself are going too far in reading the other direction. If you may recall, Russia had an economic glut in 2009 which resulted in roughly 8% GDP drop, yet it retained its Ruble value to USD of 35/1. That was during a time of no sanctions. Instead, this time it is both oil glut and sanctions and their drop was significantly less. But looked much larger on GDP nominal all entirely due to devaluation of the Ruble.
As for average person, it sucks that inflation (key word here) is what hurt the average Russian (average ~12 – 16%). I guess the 20% increase in minimum wage (of course it is from the gov budget so it is tied directly not to the idea that private groups are paying all employees this, but it is subsidized) will definitely help the average person. Because, domestic consumption is the leading factor to Russia’s economy. The recession is also Russia’s transition period from an export based economy to a significantly more domestic consumer based economy concentration. Hopefully the bigger companies will index wages more, since average wage increased in 2015 by only 3%. But then again, that is better than where I am from. But that is a whole different story.
For now, it is difficult to compare the global recession of 2008 with the current recession in Russia. They are very different. One caused a global drop in trade that impacted the energy sector and manufacturing worldwide. The current recession in Russia is happening at a time where most of the larger economies (with the exception of China) are in recovery. That alone is a worry. If this current rally slows, what do you think with happen to the already weak energy sector? I would respectfully state that I think the Russian government’s idea that developing a domestic market will supplant foreign investment and trade is misguided. It leads to a short lived bump in the living standards of farmers, small businesses at the expense of industry and financial sectors that will be starved of international investment, VC entrepreneurs, emerging technologies.
Your instistence on per capita comparisons is misguided. The discussion you intervened to was concerning national economic strength, not personal. On per capita basis Qatar has a vastly stronger economy than United States, but on national basis they aren’t even in the same category. PPP per capita is useful indicator on living standards of the people, but not on national economic strength. For that exactly GDP PPP is the most useful (according to US National Intelligence Council), and one that you so conveniently insisted on ignoring. It is the national economic strength that indicates for example ability to produce and sustain military power.
I would agree on GDP PPP being an indicator of economic strength at the national level. The issue is, we live in a global economy, no nation is self sufficient. Secondly, PPP per capita is a more accurate measurement of living standards within a nation. Of course Qatar is above the U.S. There are relatively few citizens who reap in the economic benefit from booming gas, banking, tourism industries. The U.S. figure for PPP per Capita is misleading as well, the wealth inequality is much greater than in many Western European nations that are roughly equivalent in PPP per capita.
That is why we’ve developed several different metrics to compare economies. The E.U. as a whole, is at or near the top in all metrics. One only has to look at China to see why. China has the largest economy by GDP PPP, yet the average citizen’s standard of living is below that of many of the Neighboring economies.
Russia:
GDP OER: $1.236 trillion
GDP PPP: $3.471 trillionKorea:
GDP OER: $1.393 trillion
GDP PPP: $1.849 trillionPoland:
GDP OER: $0.481 trillion
GDP PPP: $1.003 trillionGreece:
GDP OER: $0.193 trillion
GDP PPP: $0.282 trillion
ummm, did you read my post? See the part at the bottom where it says EXCEPT for GDP PPP? So, I ask in relative terms, based on PPP per capita, which nation is Russia closest to?
In no way is this intended to be Russia bashing, more directed to those who continue to harp about the relative strength of the Russian economy whilst in the midst of a recession. Frankly, it is a bit scary to see both here on this forum and in some Russian media outlets, the spin put on this economic downturn. It will virtually guarantee that the structural reforms needed will not be enacted.
A mentioned, Russia is greatly under valued on market and prices, but in PPP terms, which is very important, S.Korea is roughly half of that of Russia. Understandable as well. But even then, doesn’t take into account of various goods, like military procurement prices.
Also, Ukraine is not only a political basket case, it is an economic one as well. While there are pros to the idea of a fire sale on Ukraine property and assets, it’s value doesn’t add up to Russia’s overall trade and assets to China.
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These posts are so OT it isn’t even funny, but to add my 2c on this….
If your going to make an argument about relative strength of Russian economy, get the basic facts correct. By no measure of PPP [correction, except GDP PPP] (per Capita, GNI) is Russia above South Korea. It is closer to Greece and Poland.
edit- corrected for 2015 est. GDP PPP
Gilmore delivered a pretty scathing report to SASC on April 26th. Nothing really new. More doubt on block 3i stability, and the decision to concurrently develop and test block 3i and 3f mission systems.
The latest version Block 3iR6.21 seems to be performing better, though testing is far from complete. USAF block 3i IOC still slated for August (objective) and December (threshold) of 2016. Reliability, Maintainability, and Availability metrics have improved, but are below interim goals for this stage of development. Mission data files (MDF) continue to be a concern as much of the F-35’s capabilities rely on the MDF and the F-35 3F configuration cannot operate in full war fighting capabilities without complete MDF (2019?).
Media report most likely due soon with public releases:
http://www.armed-services.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Gilmore_04-26-16.pdf
3i includes the updated ICP (TR2), the planned block 4 upgrades include the planned upgraded software and hardware; open architecture processors (TR3). The original plan was that block 4 software will be backward-compatible with the TR2 processors (but that is not known at this time nor are there current plans to test interoperability).
If Russia wanted to destroy the DDG they would have done it from stand-off range isn’t it ? No point in committing logical fallacies. No offense.
I do believe the point went straight over your head. No one said anything about Russia wanting to destroy the Cook, or the USN wanting to engage the Su-24. The issue was maintaining safe operating distances that have been/usually are observed between forces in international waters and airspace. The point I was making is that the Phalanx has accidental firings even during peacetime maneuvers.
You say it is autonomous.. So how then does it tell a friendly or neutral from a hostile contact..
Does it engage all contact or..
Something needs to trigger it.
It engages ANY target within the engagement envelope within the parameters set by operator: min-max speed, coming at vs going away from ship. The original version had no IFF, once set to automatic target acquisition, it would engage any target meeting the engagement parameters. The 1B upgrades allow FLIR to visually confirm/identify target before engagements.
For that to happen, the US destroyer need to get painted/targeted, By radar or laser. It didn’t so no way for its selfdefence system to activate.
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No, in full autonomous target acquisition mode it engages any target within engagement envelope that shows closure relative to ship. There have been several incidents involving CIWS. Most of the time the system is in stand-by.
You are confusing the statement of the Commander of the destroyer saying “The Su-24 did not show any aggressive behavior towards us”. The engagement software of the CIWS does not care about intent.