Out of curiosity. How will 5th gen vs 4,5th gen differ from 4,5th gen vs 4th or 3rd gen?
The advantages are the same: Ie..
- see first, kill first (this is also relative to the EW-capabilities on both sides)
- Use superior sensors to get the information advantage
- Share data via better datalinks to improve the use of sensors, and allow others to fly silent (so they can flank, engage etc without giving away their position).
- Use superior kinematic performance so you have a relative advantage by getting in to a kill position faster and having the option to bug out if need to.
4,5th gen use lower RCS to get a relative edge on their radars vs older 4th gen fighters. Meaning that they can get closer undetected. Ie, BVR superiority.
They also use datalinks to allow other aircraft to silently get close to the enemy undetected and get the advantage when they attack.
Are the 5th gen tactics different?
At least to me it just sounds evolutionary. Just like the steps have been before that. Like, the WWI Rumpler Taube with translucent wings, the pink spitfires etc. Heck, even Yehudi lights have been around. All these perks do is to shorten the detection range, but they are in no way revolutions making XXX obsolete.
(See, I didnt even have to mention any specific modern fighters :D)
Man, talk about painting a discussion into a corner, I’m not going to touch that, yet… BVR tactics will be different depending on what force structure you have. The U.K. is an interesting case and point. A 4+ air superiority fighter and a 5th gen LO strike fighter in it’s future force mix. Which one do you think will do the shooting and which one the emitting? I’ve got my guess.
Wow, 60 minutes piece was fair, balanced, and actually quite good! Kudos! I think I even sensed a bit of optimism on the part of the military and DoD. Somehow I don’t think the Pentagon and LM are going to be sitting around a campfire, roasting marshmallows and singing Kumbayah any time soon, though.
Link for flight manual is in f-35 thread
F-22 was the first airplane designed to exploit the lessons of ACEVAL/AIMVAL. See and shoot the enemy before the enemy sees and shoots you.
This requires stealth and sensor techniques to positively identify potential targets at BVR ranges. You cannot predict the combat effectiveness of Gen 5 jets by interpolation of Gen 3 & 4 combat data.
Not sure why you are making this assertion, there is no attempt to predict combat effectiveness. Secondly, yes fifth gen aircraft employ different tactics, but: the weapons they employ are the same as other fighters, and the physics are the same for fourth or fifth gen aircraft, they can only turn/pitch/roll so much within load factors. Make no mistake, the sensor fusion and data fusion has a huge impact on combat effectiveness. (one the first articles up top dealt with sensor agility)
@TU-22M
“Has this been posted?
http://www.aviation.org.uk/docs/flig…-FTM108/c6.pdf
Has pretty much all formulas on the relation of bank angle/turning, aerodynamic lift/thrust lift etc. Even covers missile agility.
Got it didn’t post it, thanks for posting it. Good reference for explaining maneuverability
That, in essence, was the gist of my post above, the truths of that are debatable. Modern missile NEZ are closely guarded notice the lack of range info on kills after GW1
BVR- part I (WVR part 1 here:http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?128845-What-metrics-of-Agility-and-Maneuverability-matter&p=2113513#post2113513)
The first problem is what constitutes BVR engagements: a fighter like the f-16 may not be visible beyond about 5 miles, the F-15 or Su-27 will be visible much further. Second issue is systems like IRST, DAS extend the “visuals” of a target. Lastly, newer IR missiles can reach out ranges previously reserved for the traditional radar guided BVR missile.
So to what degree does maneuverability matter in modern BVR combat? And has BVR missile engagements become a mature technology that impacts fighter design?
First- Ault report (vietnam)- Report of the Air to Air Missile System Capability Review: July to November 1968 (this is a pdf- copy paste in google to grab original)
_
Synopsis:
It took 5.2 seconds to fire a sparrow missile, pilots were forced into a “heads down” position with radar scope to fire
failure rate was increased by turning sparrow into an “ejector missile” from a rail missile
pilots were not completely versed in the engagement parameters of the missiles
handling of the missiles impacted their performance (particularly sparrows)
pilots had not actually fired the missiles in training
topgun came out of the need for more realistic training
My note: this paper is one of the holy grails of those bashing the idea of BVR combat. In essence, the real lesson is that Vietnam was an anomaly. We’ve spent many years learning the wrong lessons from Vietnam (low level penetration, gun kills, ACM in close quarters), the Gulf war gave a glimpse that these lessons were wrong, or at least mis-interpreted
Next-Promise and Reality: Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air-To-Air Combat:Lt Col Patrick Higby, USAF
http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf
yeah POGO
Synopsis:
58% of missile kills in until 1982 were heat seekers, 14% were radar guided missiles
majority of radar missile kills were WVR
Gulf War I showed as many as 16 BVR kills (or as few as 5)
59% of kills in Gulf war I were radar guided missiles (sparrow), gun kills 5%
Post Desert Storm amraam kill ranges were possibly WVR
F-16 had dismal performance with aim-9 despite WVR petigree
My note: This study does not take into account mission kills, many launches from Aim-7 were outside of launch parameters and the pilots knew it. The book “Crusade-The Untold Story of the Persian Gulf War: Rick Atkinson” discusses many of the air to air engagements of the war, including one of the more famous Mig-25 examples. The navy has a saying “a stern chase is a long chase”, that is true of BVR missile engagements too.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/98-210.pdf
Short synopsis- BVR engagements are dictated by ROE, future stealth engagements may not allow this.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/24445455/BVR-Missiles
Synopsis- breakdown how BVR missiles work
http://www.ipcsit.com/vol16/24-ICICM2011M054.pdf
Maneuver Strategy in Beyond-Visual-Range Air Combat: Liang Xiao, Jun Huan
synopsis:
Based on the experience of an air combat expert, following 9 maneuvering intensions can be found: (1) Head-on approaching;(2)Left vertical escaping; (3)Side flanking; (4) Same direction escaping; (5)Right vertical escaping; (6)Front side approaching; (7)Front side escaping; (8)Lateral flanking; (9)Rear side flanking.
Supremacy Function
Decision making needs to evaluate the supremacy and then find out respective benefits of each type of the maneuver strategies. The aircraft supremacy state membership function is obtained by defining the relative state variables: Td is the distance supremacy, TΦ is the azimuth supremacy, Tq is the impact angle supremacy, and TE is the energy supremacy.
Distance Supremacy
The killing probability of a missile to its target is larger when the missile is at a medium launching distance, and when it is near to the nearest or the farthest launching distance, the killing probability is smaller and changes rapidly. When launching within the unescapable area, no matter how the target tries to avoid the attack it can not escape. A distance supremacy function can be derived based on this
azimuth performance-When the missile is launched for attacking and it has a significant supremacy to the target, the aircraft has to keep a certain azimuth with the target in order to minimize the threat from the target. Meanwhile, the aircraft has to keep the guidance to the missile to ensure the target is within the detective area. The attacking condition is retained to perform the attack when necessary
Impact Angle Supremacy
The effect of the impact angle to the supremacy function is reflected in its effect on the missile killing probability. The simulation results show that when the target is moving a rectilinear motion, the value of the killing probability is symmetrically distributed within the attacking area.
Energy Supremacy
In order to obtain a larger initial kinetic energy to extend the missile’s launching distance, the carrier should increase its speed hence its kinetic energy before launching. To maximize the supremacy the carrier can normally achieves the velocity of sound before launching of the missile.
My take: Here is where the air-superiority fighters have a distinct advantage. Greater radar range and kinematic performance rules.
If Thrust to weight ratio and wing loading were the only parameters that mattered than fighter design would have frozen in the 1970’s. The Su-27 itself shows that is not the case, wing loading is not particularly low yet it is a fantastically maneuverable aircraft.
That’d greatly depend on how you envisage the mechanics of the next major air war.
A few questions to ponder….
-The attacking mindset-
Will radar guided BVR truly come of age?
Will HOBS IR AAMs mean anything within a 5 mile sphere of an aircraft with HMS is dead?
Will LPI radar actually mean you can use a radar with impunity, seeking out and destroying hapless targets with long reach AAMs?
Will IRSTs allow passive detection and engagement of unwitting aircraft using LOAL after launch weapons guided to an IP via datalink?-The defensive mindset-
Will continual improvements in DIRCM mean the IR AAM loses effectiveness drastically?
Will LO and VLO aircraft mean radar missile seekers lose the low return signature in the clutter of counter measures?
Will AESA sets be capable of jamming radar guided seeker heads?
Will DEW be capable of frying radar guided seeker heads?Obviously the maneuver priorities of the former 4 differ from the latter 4….
Great questions:
I focused the first two posts of links mostly on WVR considerations, there is no doubt that the goalposts have changed. That is one reason I started to compile various studies. Boyd and the E-M theories he postulated were based on the need to achieve a 6 o’clock firing solution. Obviously, that is not the case anymore. Most of what I’ve deduced from this are that transient agility metrics are displacing some of the traditional measures of how a fighter will perform in a merge. The technology of sensors and weapons is advancing far faster than the physics that govern aerodynamic performance of a platform. F-4 phantoms based on 1950’s aerodynamics still provide a viable air defense for some nations based on avionics and weapons upgrades. It may not achieve a favorable kill loss ratio, but flying an airframe for 50+ years shows that the advancements gained in aerodynamics, propulsion, and agility have slowed compared to the microprocessor. (Imagine a spitfire providing air policing in 1990)
I’m going to post some BVR links next-looking at some traditional maneuverability
Read top posts schurem, yes it is halloweene it’s one of the metrics mentioned in the above studies
Part II- Operational Impact
ACEVAL/AIMVAL-
http://combatace.com/blog/5/entry-33-acevalaimval-lessons-learned/
http://www.gao.gov/assets/150/141240.pdf
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2008/February%202008/0208reformers.aspx
Differing conclusions can be drawn-
First, requirement for visual id limited effectiveness of BVR shots, F-14 had TCS, F-15 pilots taped hunting scopes next to HUD to cheat. (In the age of IFF, AWACS, IRST, the lessons learned about visual ID to avoid blue on blue engagement may have changed significantly- I think)
Second, the large air-superiority fighters had a distinct advantage in 2 v 2 engagements and the like. The many v. many scenarios see kill ratios drop significantly. This has been codified as “in a dogfight everyone dies at the same rate”
Third, the pioneering use of HMS and off-bore sight missiles in the study showed that 90% of aim-9 kills were by that method.
Lastly, the experience of F-15’s and F-14’s showed that the larger, more powerful fighters did have an advantage, but a fighter with better weapon system/radar has a greater advantage by avoiding the merge altogether ( development of the amraam)
The “Reformers” used this as an attack on the concept of BVR, one that persists to this day using flawed data from ACEVAL/AIMVAL and sparrow Pk from Vietnam.
F-18 VS X-31 VALUATION OF PROPOSED AGILITY METRICS USING X-31 VS. F/A-18 FLIGHT DATA: Julieta E. Booz
This study looked at the use of nose pointing vs standard maneuverability, the conclusions are basically that the x-31 with inferior T/W ratio and wingloading was able to exploit TVC to win engagements through superior nose pointing.
Unfortunately, I was unable to find a similar study I once had that included the F-16. Interestingly, the F-18 with it’s superior AOA ability was able to dominate a one circle engagement. In a two circle fight, the F-16’s superior energy management led to the F-16 winning.
http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public/PubFulltext/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-035/MP-035-29.pdf
Design tools for Performance assessment of fighter aircraft incorporating new technologies
This study again looks at the effects of new agility metrics over traditional maneuvering i.e. sustained turns, and the impact of weight and thrust on both. Somewhat counterintuitively, the study stresses that increased thrust is an advantage in BVR engagements and less so in WVR. You need a major increase in thrust to impact WVR performance.
Interesting paper describes the conflicting requirements for an Air superiority fighter vs a
fighter/attack aircraft. It gives good insight into the design drivers for what became the JSF program, at least from Boeing’s perspective
My take on this:
The focus on sustained turn rates are not predictive of a dominant WVR fighter aircraft.
If you find yourself in a knife fight, the aircraft with the better transient agility metrics has the initial advantage, yet with HOBS and HMS within visual range combat is as much about the systems (faster OODA loop= kill)
With modern ir missiles there are not going to be many two circle (or more) fights, this is going to be quick draw not fencing.
BTW, most of the research is from the 90’s, but that’s when most fighters currently in service were designed, also if anyone has papers from Russian, Indian, French, etc. I would love translated synopsis posted here.
Part III will be BVR combat
note- obligatory, I think you are missing the point, you cannot separate maneuverability from sensor agility, BOTH matter and in modern combat having one without the other is useless.
360 degrees / 12.8 seconds = 28.1 deg/s average turn rate. I didnt say sustained turn, i did say sustained for a 360 degree turn. Task = completing a full circle as quickly as possible. Measure of success = elapsed time. Like I’ve said, its not a proof of one is superior to other, but its a quite an indication that gives an idea about each aircraft’s performance.
Ok, I get your point. BTW, do you have other E-M charts on SU-27? Acceleration graphs?
I agree we cannot be 100% certain or get numerical comperison with similar aircraft, but I believe we can get the general idea. Like you said, nearly all air-shows are clean and at low fuel state. Also all aircraft are observed via mk1 eyeballs have room to slow down a little or all perform pretty close to the ground. IMHO such comparison on pretty equal grounds to me.
A Su-27 with extremely low on fuel (obviously) can sustain a 26-28 deg/s turn rate for full 360 turn; as demonstrated on various airshows. Its Flight Manual data says it can sustain 21,75 on 50% fuel. If there is no single video of a, say, Typhoon sustaining even 21-22 deg/s for a 360 turn, am I wrong to conclude “there is a high possibility that Su-27 has better maneuverability at Sea level than Typhoon” ??
again how do you know it’s a sustained turn? Unless sitting in the cockpit with the pilot can you tell that the airspeed at the start of the maneuver is the same as at the completion of the turn? As for which has a higher sustained turn rate Typhoon or SU-27, to be honest I’ve only seen a suspect E-M diagram of the Su-27, and there’s nothing solid on a Typhoon. One reason I hate these type of threads, lack of empirical data leads to pi**ing contests.
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Chauvinist logic (in its original meaning, is an exaggerated patriotism and a belligerent belief in national superiority and glory).
Some guys present such behavior very frequently, so it is rather pointless to discuss with them.
Ignorance recommended.
There may be more than one guilty party here as: A)The French participated in the Gulf war, and B) the U.K., U.S., Italy, et al. were integral to the the success of operation unified protector. It was a coalition effort from the start with tomahawk strikes, B-2 strikes, commencing shortly after the French recon flights over Bengazi. While the French flew the highest percentage of missions, let’s not make it out to a virtuoso performance by one aircraft.
The comparison of wing-load and T/W ratio for anything other than a vague indication of potential turn performance can be highlighted by the controversy regarding the F-22’s development. There were quite a few vocal critics proclaiming the F-22 to be a performance failure. The Riccioni paper being a famous example of how even a former USAF pilot can get it wrong.
The F–22 does not provide a Great Leap Forward in performance relative to the F–15C or MiG-29.
At 65,000 lbs, with 18,500 – 18,750 lbs of fuel, with two nominal 35,000 lb thrust engines—it has the thrust to weight ratio of the F–15C, the fuel fraction of the F–15C, and a wing loading that is only slightly inferior to that of the F–15C, so it will accelerate, climb, and maneuver much like the F–15C for reasons of basic physics.There are two differences from the F–15—thrust vectoring and supersonic speeds in dry thrust. The thrust vectoring being in only one dimension, does not augment slow speed maneuvering; it serves another purpose.
The flight test program to validate maneuverability is utterly inadequate. Using a single number—the maximum steady-state G at 30,000 ft at 0.9 Mach, for an aircraft that operates from stall speed to beyond Mach 2, from sea level to above 60,000 ft, is a throwback to the Dark Ages of aircraft evaluation
http://www.dnipogo.org/fcs/doc/riccioni_paper.doc
The one point that is valid is using the single number of sustained g and 30,000 feet to validate the maneuver requirement. In reality, this is one metric where there is little difference between the F-15 and F-22 ( 3.7 g- although there is no indication of the fuel weight of the F-22 for this KPP. If it’s 100% fuel and weapons, then that is impressive, if it’s 50% fuel then there is little difference )
Riccioni went wrong for several reasons: 1. failed to take into account lift provided by fuselage, how massive size horizontal/ vertical stabs would improve agility 2. failed to take into account that the F-22 has lower drag 3. F-119 produced more power at altitude than the F-100 4. Underestimated the effect TVC would have on trim drag, supersonic envelope.
BTW, I don’t think comparing aircraft turn rates at airshows is a valid method for comparing sustained turn rates. Most aircraft perform clean, there’s no way to tell at fuel state, airspeed restrictions at different airshows, etc. Also, how can you tell it’s a turn rate the aircraft can sustain? There is no way to eyeball if the aircraft is bleeding airspeed for higher rate of turn.
Well, with the staggering cost escalations and delayed schedule of the F-35, as well as trying to do too much with a single airframe, it does raise questions on whether more advanced “silent” versions of existing platforms would have been way cheaper and more effective way to go. There’s been discussions here in the UK recently on the significant cost of the F-35B acquisition, it’s effectiveness and long lead time to service. I just wondering whether a few squadrons of advanced Super Hornets would have been a better choice for the RN on its new carriers.
Probably not more cost effective to operate Supers from the RN carriers, seeing how they would be good for one take off, landing would be a bit of an issue.