Many people make it sound like the U.S. Govt/Military is not spending any money on developing, testing & evaluating, and fielding equipment that helps prevent blue-on-blue tragedies. I can tell you right now that hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent on systems like FBCB2 Blue Force Tracker.
Unfortunately, the test and evaluation (among various other political hoops that must be jumped through) prevent getting the technology that exists today fielded to the troops that need it now. Anyone that doesn’t think there are thousands of people trying to develop a Joint, Coalition, and Allied level system for IFF are completely dillusional (spelling?).
I hate to be critical when you are trying to be helpful, but in the case of the Mi-8 I do see the dual purpose civilian/military aspect. However, this platform was originally designed and developed for military purpose (first transport, then gunship) and it was later found to have civilian importance.
I am more concerned with the opposite of that situation. A civilian (rotary wing) platform that gets militarized. This way I can (hopefully) see some of the steps that were taken on the physical airframe and then draw parallels to support the militarization of the UH-72A.
edit edit.. Thanks!! I will start with the Mi-8
Thanks for the information on the South American countries militarizing civilian aircraft, I will research this further. Is there any particular country in South America that engages in this behavior much more than the other countries?
My paper is almost done and anyone who wants to read the final draft can send me a private message.
I can definitely take a look into the Janes article you mentioned, as well as contacting Eurocopter; but from what I have found out so far the BK-117M was never fielded. If there was some developmental and operational testing (including live fire) then that would prove very helpful for my paper.
I don’t see it as reinventing the wheel. One platform outperforms another in practically every aspect. If some measures can be taken so that one assembly line pops off LUHs and another assembly line takes those and adds some materiels and pops off ARHs then the Army will benefit (although sadly BELL won’t). I am trying to figure out just how much would have to change to see if this even saves money.
Survivability isn’t a major issue with the UH-72A/EC-145.
This is exactly what I am trying to address. I want to take the UH-72A and see if certain measures can be done in order for it to address the requirements of the Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) thus one platform performing two roles for the ARMY (hopefully saving time and money). In order for me to do that I have to address many issues including live fire/survivability since survivability is an issue for the ARH. There are other performance based aspects (required of the ARH) that I think the UH-72A is readily able to handle, but other aspects will require some modifications to the airframe of which I have extremely insufficient knowledge of.
Well, if survivability has to be handled from the beginning then i am essentially wasting my time trying to figure out if an airframe can be modified to become survivable (assuming it wasn’t originally intended on being used by military in tactical environment)… for those reading this thread i am referencing my other thread in which I am trying to figure out all aspects of modifying the current Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) platform to meet the ARMY needs of the Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) thus merging two major acquisition programs.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65878
As for responsibility, I suppose it depends on when in the helicopters life span the survivability occurs. If it is in initial procurement then it needs to be placed in the operational requirements.
OK, let’s assume the aircraft is in the procurement phase. Then it has to be in the customer-written-requirements that the airframe be survivable in a tactical environment. Which would therefore put the responsibility on the vendor to answer the requirements of survivability, correct? SO… vendors must have to take certain actions to improve civil airframes for military use, this is the type of information I need.
can anyone address the last issue in my original post of modify first then shoot vs. shoot first then modify? I am trying to get into some of the more nitty gritty test and evaluation issues so I can see whose responsibility it is or when action is taken with regards to modifying an airframe.
Thanks for the link, sealordlawrence. I can see commercial products being added to airframes to make them more survivable. I guess the nailgun and kevlar joke wasn’t that much of a joke.
It is pretty difficult to find any data on the BK117M. I think I should abandon this line of thought and just stick to arming the EC145 (and making it survivable).
EDIT: I am actually still a bit confused over the BK117. Are there any variants of this platform that were armed BESIDES the BK117M (which was apparently never fielded) and if so by which country/organization?
Yes, Chile… formerly also air forces of Iraq and Venda..
..another users are Spanish Guardia Civil, Japanese TRDI, Carabinieros de Chile, Peruvian Police, Australian Police, Colombian Police, German Polizei, Police of Dubai etc.
I tried to validate your information and from what I have researched all those operatives used some form of the utility version of the BK117 NOT the BK117M. I would really appreciate if someone can prove me wrong and validate that one or more of those associations fielded the BK117M.
There is more to it than adding just some kevlar mats. Besides beefing up the airframe, you have to armor all the mechanical and hydraulical flight control systems, the gearbox should get a run-dry capability, crew survivability has to be enhanced, the whole aircraft has to function over a wider temperature range than the civil version, things like that.
I think the temperature range is already fulfilled. Part of the crew survivability can be accomplished thru use of the Air Warror ensemble which is compatible with the current cockpit. I understand the mechanical and hydraulic flight control systems will have to go thru remodeling and testing.
I wonder if some of these pieces and parts have already gone thru live fire testing on the predecessor platforms that were in military use by other countries. Is it possible to get foreign comparative testing data from foreign militaries? Is data like that even public?
You would have to re-design the EC145 for ballistic protection and all that other stuff needed to fly combat missions.
Hopefully the exterior doesn’t require “that much” additional materiel to go thru a Live Fire Test. However the interior, as you noted, will require many upgrades such as a Common Aviation Architecture System, Target Acquisition Sensor Suite, and all the Interoperability equipment. I am sure there are more items I am missing if someone would like to help me out here.
An ideal situation would be to have one assembly line that splits into two branches where one side spits out regular UH-72A’s and the other side spits out ARMED UH-72A’s.
I am slowly getting away from the idea that the EC-635 can be an ARLUH because the politics behind that are far more complex and I don’t even want to get into it. :rolleyes:
I would say no. The hardware requirements are too different.
The 407 is too small for the LUH requirements, and bringing an EC145 up to the same level of integration as the ARH-70 wouldn’t have been any cheaper than getting two airframes.
By integration do you mean the Mission Equipment Package, Target Acquisition, and Interoperability equipment? I am trying to figure out how much of that hardware is dependent on the physical airframe. If most of it has no reference to the airframe (other than physical real estate) then hopefully that COTS equipment can be integrated into the EC-635. Understanding those items is a little further down the road for me but I will consider any suggestions that might be “show-stoppers” for what I am trying to accomplish.
EDIT After re-reading what I posted I don’t know if the term “COTS” was correctly used.
ok I got this flow chart from another message board:
[PHP]. BO-105
. / |
. EC-135 BK-117
. / | /
. EC-635 EC-145[/PHP]
what I want to know is can I arm the EC-145 or modify the EC-635 so the Army can combine two HUGE programs into one Armed Reconnaissance Light Utility Helicopter??