Ebay B17

Steve,

Apologies for the belated reply(!), but thanks for your earlier post.

I don’t really buy the argument about any sort of militaria being classed along side the sort of stuff we’ve been discussing.

I don’t see this as an argument about glorifying war or agreeing about the morality of bombing civilians and the like as this guy purports.

As far as I am concerned, it is about respecting the sacrifice made by those who fought and died for our generation. End of story.

Whether or not this crash site is designated a war grave, the circumstances of the impact has resulted in traces of human remains still lying there. This does not, howeer, curtail my belief that a lot of good has come out of retrieving artefacts for public display in properly licenced digs to “feed” properly run museums. I, for one, would not have heard about this aircraft/crew if it hadn’t been for such efforts and the 1989 Flypast Article. Much good comes out of these digs as we all know. All I ask is for everyone to respect such sites and everything contained within and to show a bit of decency when contemplating the sale of such items (if obtained legally!) for personal profit. Despite the illegality issue, is this really a respectful way to remember those who died?

Furthermore, what sort of Air Museum would hold “thousands” of rounds whilst at the same time not wanting them and then be irresponsible enough to sell them/give them away to the general public?

Skipper

ebay B17

It’s probaly best because I never read anything inteligent you posted anyway!

This has the halllmarks of Joe King about it.
Don’t respond.

Fair enough.

ebay B17

The funny thing is? I’m not playing! I’m for real

Wrenchbinder, you’re out of order. Don’t play with this kind of emotion unless you know what it means. I gave a brother and a sister a place to mourn their siblings this year. They don’t have a grave because the guys ended up in the Channel. On Remembrance Sunday this year there were poppies left there. Dead and gone they may be, 60 years is a long time, but there a still people who miss them and who grieve for them. I suggest that you leave your current train of thought before posting a response.

ebay b17

Well, I guess there will be a little less to visit next year if there are any good parts laying around

Wrenchbinder,

“dead and gone” – remind me to tell “Doc” Bell’s orphaned son when he comes over here later this year to visit his father’s grave and the crashsite for the first time ever!!!

Oh, and Rosebasky’s two sisters; and Thomas’ brothers and sister; and Bond’s sister; and Littlejohn’s brother; and Payne’s three sisters; and Stoaks’ relative (who leave a floral tribute at Cambridge every year); and Brown’s brother…

“dead” maybe, but certainly not “gone”!!!

**EDITED BY WEBMASTER **

Ebay B17

I hope the guy makes top dollar. It’s not like it is a fresh kill, I’m sorry but they are dead and gone and I would do the same thing. So you guys tell me where all the stuff is and I’ll go get it.

Moggy for your own safety I wouldnt ever pick up any kind of ammo from a site just mark it if you can and the phone the police.

I have had dealings through a misunderstanding and now understand the MOD way of thinking and its in your best interest to take nothing to do with it apart from phone the cops

Having now read all the comments I must say I wouldnt buy this from him and he sounds a bit like a politician going round the subject and not answering the questions.

The fact that 11 men died on this trip and the way they died I would not have even attempted a dig as there would be and still will be human remains.

I have had personal experiance of finding human remains and on another site which we were visiting which was a B17 where 3 were fatal we found evidence of remains. A bone with cloth locked onto it. A very small piece of bone but there it was. We left the site as we found it but took away memories and left only footprints. Also having research that site we knew something of the crew and while we were there we had a thought for them.

If you tried for a licence on a similar site today I dont think the MOD would grant a licence as they have tightened the rules and we have had problems getting a licence for 3 straight forward sites to date.

Originally posted by Flood
I have it as 353BS/301BG, exploded soon after take off Lucera, 14/6/44 – 3KIA, 7RTD. (The B-17 Flying Fortress Story – Arms and Armour)

Somebody has been ‘grave robbing’;). (And I mean that in a non-judgemental sense!)

Flood.

Flood,

They have only been grave robbing IF the bodies are listed as not being recovered and dont have a grave as such.

If the grave stone is on site then the whole site is a war grave and should not be touched. Simlilar to a Defiant near me.

Also if they didnt have a licence to dig then this would also be illegal. Dont actually think they should have removed the rounds from the site though as they wouldnt have been inert when they found them. The MOD EOD team would be very interested in the items shown I think.

I was told by them MOD the only way a civilian could get hold of ammo from a site was for the EOD team to remove it for them and deactivate it. And that the would only do it if it was of particular interest. Say a ammo round not normally found in an aircraft or other reasons.

I had dealings with the MOD some time ago which some of you may remember so I learnt a quite a bit on the subject.

Personally I dont see anything wrong with it as there are a lot more sick things going on in the world for me to worry about somebody taking a bit of an aircraft especially if the had a licence to do so.

What the legal implicatiobns to selling it are I dont know because I though it was illegal to sell items recovered but I might have it wrong.

Look up The Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 to find out the full story.

Here is the response in full. I ahve decided against editing it to just the point as it is fairer to hear the full arguement.

THE MORALITY ISSUE WILL ALWAYS BE A CONTROVERSIAL ONE.
THIS COULD APPLY TO ALMOST ANY FORM OF MILITARIA THAT IS FOR SALE.
I COLLECT 40MM BOFORS ROUNDS THE ONLY THING THAT THEY ARE FOR IS TO SHOOT
DOWN AIRPLANES.
IS IT WRONG THAT I COLLECT THEM CONSIDERING THERE INTENDED USE?.
PEOPLE WILL PAY A LOT OF MONEY TO FLY IN A WW2 AIRPLANE THAT MAY HAVE
DROPPED BOMBS ON BERLIN. IS THIS GLORIFYING DEATH? IS THE OPERATORS OF
CLASSIC AIR CRAFT PROFITING FROM WAR?
I AM A OPTIMIST AND LIKE TO THINK THAT WAR IS A BAD THING AND PEOPLE ARE
INTERESTED IN THE HISTORY .RATHER THAN BLOOD AND GUTS.
THE AIR MUSEUM NEAR ME DIDN’T WANT THEM THEY HAVE THOUSANDS APPARENTLY.
AND I HAVE SEEN 50CALS FROM CRASHES FOR SALE IN MUSEUM SHOPS.
DO YOU THINK THIS IS WRONG?
I THINK THAT A SENSE OF PERSPECTIVE IS NEEDED.
THIS IS NOT A BODY PART OR EVEN A PERSONAL ITEM OF THE CREW IT ISN’T EVEN A
PART OF THE AIRPLANE IT IS TWO INERT 50CAL MG ROUNDS FROM A VERY SAD PART OF
HUMAN HISTORY.
BUT I THINK IT SHOULD BE REMEMBERED AND PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ASHAMED TO HAVE
A PART OF SOMETHING .IF IT MEANS SOMETHING TO THAT PERSON .THAT CAN ONLY BE
A GOOD THING.
I CAN SEE YOUR POINT I HOPE THAT YOU SEE MINE.

best regards, steve

Under the UK firearms regulations it is illegal for anyone to be ‘in possession’ of live ammunition without it being signed onto their permit by an RFD holder (Registered Firearms Dealer).

However, as with much of the panic-driven legislation brought in post Hungerford and Dunblaine it is actually unworkable and not too strictly observed.

Were I to be walking a crash site and come across some live machine gun ammunition I’d pocket it and drop it off at my nearest police station, rather than leave them lying around with the possibility of kids picking them up. (Kids have a seemingly insatiable urge to hit the brass end with rocks and hammers). This would constitute an illegal act on my part, but I would rate the chances of being prosecuted for such responsible behaviour very unlikely.

Anything in the cannon-shell line I’d leave strictly alone, calling the police by mobile and waiting with the ordnance until they arrived.

Moggy

I think Flood may have a point here…..

Also, all yours are very valid too Graham.

Steve – go ahead and post the points.

Now, as an aside, isn’t it illegal to remove live ammunition from a site without a firearms licence? Granted these are now inert, but they wouldn’t have been before.

Steve,

By all means outline the points he made.

Regards

Skipper

Hello, Back again, I managed to get a response from the seller. I am debating whether i should post it here in his defence but i am not sure if it would be right to post a personnel email on a public forum.

Perhaps it would be more suitable to outline the points he made, i would add his response was courteous and polite on the matter.

best regards, steve

I suppose these items really did come from this B17 and aren’t just being sold with an interesting history attached to boost the price?

Flood.

Snapper,

I suppose where I’m coming from is that the sale of these items were stolen. The US authorities passed on the custody of aircraft remains the the MoD. Therein they belong to the MoD and as such there removal requires official licencing from the MoD as well as the US Embassy, the landowners (The Scottish National Trust) and the Home Office (as it is in a Site of Scientific Interest).

Having spoken to the guy who obtained the one and only licence issued for this site we can conclude that anything retrieved outwith that dig was removed illegally. I firmly believe that this “character” did not retrieve anything from that dig and therefore obtained it illegally.

Your hypothesis of a deceased airman’s logbook, or a death plaque, medals, etc is different to me as these item (I would hope) would have found there way on to the market with the blessing of next of kin, etc. It’s all above board (I would hope).

I wouldn’t believe for one minute that the families I know would give their blessing to someone making personal profit from material retrieved illegally from their brother’s/father’s aircraft.

Speaking from personal experience, I certainly wouldn’t stomach the thought of some “car nut” selling parts from the car my 21 year old cousin died in just because her car was of some historical importance!!!

Skipper

I don’t really have an opinion as such. I just see someone selling some wartime stuff that has no meaning to him – probably to someone who it will also have no meaning to. Perhaps it came from the 1980’s ‘dig’ even. Compare it with me having, in a drawer next to me, the logbook of a pilot and the diary of another who were killed on the same day. That could also be construed in a similar vein (though for various reasons this isn’t the case). There is also the trade in medals and so on – you get a higher price if they were casualties. And death plaques from WW1 sell too. They are tangible links to the past, and have a documentable history, therefore they have a provenance that makes their value higher.

I don’t feel that those items being on sale is offensive, personally. HOWEVER, 11 guys died on that flight, and if it were something personal of theirs (cap badge? lighter? Dog tag?) that would be a whole other kettle of fish. I would find it VERY distasteful.

Just thoughts. Interesting debate coming on I think.

(Must remember to go up to Hardwick and have a look at some point. Mind you, there are some oddball characters out that way…..!)