[updated:LAST EDITED ON 10-11-02 AT 01:03 PM (GMT)]Relating to: Sergeant J G ‘Johnny’ Wiseman, 20 years old, shot down in Hawker Typhoon R7872 PR-S of 609 (West Riding) Squadron by FW190 of III/JG2 at around 1100 hrs, 14th February 1943. Johnny was from a small Norfolk Village called Ashby-with-Oby, the son of Percy and Hilda Wiseman. (Johnny is seen in the Boulting Brother PR film ‘Between Friends’ where they say “That’s Johnny, he’s from Yarmouth, where they catch herrings you know!”).
About 10-12 miles from (Great) Yarmouth, in the middle of a bunch of fields is a farm. That’s Ashby. Also nearby are a couple of houses. That’s Oby. On the side of the road is a small sign saying Ashby-with-Oby. Clearly, a place of that size is unlikely to have either a church, or even a War Memorial. Having trekked out to this hitherto unheard of area this morning with the intention of placing a poppy and remembering his sacrifice, I was surprised to find that he has no local commemoration (He is, however, listed on the Runnymede Memorial). His name is not recorded on the memorials of the two other churches nearby (Thurne and Repps-with-Bastwick), nor could I find anything at the church at Clippesby (admittedly it was locked, so I couldn’t enter). Ultimately, I left the poppy at Thurne church and came home.
Now this has got me thinking, how many of our forebears who died have no memorial to their passing in defence of our future in their home village/town/city? I can recall, every time I went to my local village church, reading the names of those who died in the two World Wars. It always seemed to me to be important that their names were visible to those of us living in the village all these years after, and that I read them. To say that I was surprised to find no mention of Johnny at not finding a lasting tribute is even more so. For this reason, I would like to ask all who read this today to think of Johnny for a minute or two, and also Alan ‘Babe’ Haddon from Leicester who was also lost with him that day, and all those countless others who didn’t get to grow up, grow old, and die after a full life.
On a practical note too, I would like to ask for advice from any of you who may have done this at some point – How can I go about arranging for a suitable memorial at Ashby-with-Oby, say on the roadside? I am thinking of an appeal in the local press (plus an article or two) to find surviving relatives, further information on his life and RAF career, and to ask for donations to put a plinth there. Are there any organisations who may be willing to help? I think that almost 60 years is long enough for any village to forget their son. The surprise is that their is now someone to remember Johnny.
(The top picture is Johnny Wiseman in a still from ‘Between Friends’, the other is of ‘Johnny and ‘Babe’, who was also lost the same day.)
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By: Arabella-Cox - 10th November 2003 at 00:17
What an incredibly moving image that is. And what a wonderful legacy you’ve created, to give someone the chance to pay their respects to a loved one in such a personal way after so many years.
By: Snapper - 9th November 2003 at 23:02
Remembrance Sunday last year was when all of this began for me. Remembrance Sunday this year, when I went to pay my respects to Johnny and Babe, I found these from Betty and Les, Johnny’s sister and her husband, already there. Betty passes by her brothers memorial about once a month.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning
By: Snapper - 12th February 2003 at 09:15
RE: The Stone
Well, it will be 60 years since Johnny and Babe’s death on Friday, February 14th – Valentines day. Please take the time to spare a thought for them. I will be.
By: Snapper - 15th January 2003 at 23:13
RE: The Stone
I am a-quiver…..
By: EN830 - 15th January 2003 at 22:36
RE: The Stone
Hi Snapper
Glad I could be of help.
With my Mother being from the land of the White Rose it seems fitting.
With the two memorials that I’ve had the honour of organising I’ve tried to keep them as low maintenance as possible. Though recently the local parish authorities and Jersey Heritage spent about £10,000 on refurbishing the Great Escape/ Free French memorial that was unveiled in 1999. The pointing on the gateway needed re-doing, I must admit it looks great now.
I hope to be over for Legends and if I can I’d like to be at the ceremony. I will mention it to my Spitfire friends and see if they can arrange something, can you give me the exact location, a GPS co-ordinate would help. Attached is a picture of BM597 during her time at Church Fenton in the colours of 609 Sqn.
Ian
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By: Snapper - 15th January 2003 at 15:08
RE: The Stone
Hi Ian,
I’d forgotten all about the bench. Probably leave that out – as you say, a tempting ‘target’ for all manner of things. I loved the white rose idea, and will go for that. I think I can rely on around £200 as a guaranteed amount, and the rest should be easily covered by people who have said that they would like to donate, but to whom i’ve not talked figures yet! Aiming for the 14th July now, the day after Legends, as there will be people (and aircraft) in the area still, and perhaps some will hang about for the extra Monday – certainly if you were planning on being present it would be more suitable than flying over in February as well! Johns sister (I visited briefly a couple of days before Christmas) also wants to contribute, so I think financially it should hold up. Its just getting around to organising the loose ends, as you probably know!
This reminds me, I have dug out a couple of bits on the Great Escape / Sagan for you, from wartime mags, and will be scanning and sending them shotly.
Regards,
Mark.
By: EN830 - 15th January 2003 at 13:35
RE: The Stone
Hi Snapper
Glad to hear about the stone, how much are you short are you on the funds front?
If you go for the bench as well, make sure it is bolted down with at least 3 ton of concrete otherwise some passing idiot will be inclind to “borrow” it. The other down side with the bench is the maintenance of it, and the temptation to carve one name in it.
Are you still aiming for the 14th Feb?
Ian
By: Snapper - 13th January 2003 at 22:59
RE: Tom writes some more…
An extract from a diary kept by F.IIE 809082 Bob Walling:
Feb 14th
Babe Haddon and Johnnie Wiseman both went for a Burton.
They were shot into the sea off the French coast buy one Fw190.
There was a general mix up over some MTBs in the Channel and in the end 4 Fws had been definitely destroyed and three probably destroyed.
Cheval got two and one probable and De Selys got one Payne got one and P/O Polak a probable.
By: Snapper - 17th December 2002 at 21:28
RE: Tom writes some more…
Hmm, a bench might be nice, but…..
I’ve found a stone. 64 inches tall, and 16 by 16 square. Used to be part of a war memorial. Its looking like costing around £300. Thats sort of like 3 times as much as I definately have, and twice what I think I might have right now. I may have to start flogging some stuff…..
By: IndianaTony - 11th December 2002 at 00:58
RE: Tom writes some more…
Snapper, just wanted to say, what a fantastic job you’ve done, in a remarkably short period of time. Might I suggest one thing?
If funds stretch to it, would it be possible to have a bench at the spot, so people could sit and reflect possibly? I know that part of the world, it’s beautiful in summer…
Once again, bloody outstanding work
Tony
By: Snapper - 10th December 2002 at 23:22
RE: Tom writes some more…
There will indeed Moggy, either on the 14th February (60 years), or the nearest Sunday, or on the 14th July – the day after Flying Legends at Duxford. It seems that the surroundings will be dryer, cleaner, greener etc in July, plus flypasts are more likely. The 14th July is a monday, which makes it a bit more difficult for workers and schoolchildren – but everyone likes an excuse to skive off! I envisage Norfolk Ploughmans lunch afterwards.
By: Moggy C - 8th December 2002 at 23:51
RE: Tom writes some more…
To Snapper
Keep up the good work. Is there going to be an official dedication of the stones / whatever? I’ll be there for that.
To Tom W
Despite your racist remarks 😉 Tell us more about the Tempest. Where, how long until it flies etc.
Moggy
By: Snapper - 8th December 2002 at 20:42
RE: Tom writes some more…
Just been to see the farmer today – a lovely chap. He has offered a place near the road flanked by trees, fairly high up (and dry) just up from a lay-by and at the end of an old road, that is crossed by a public footpath. All this at the edge of the main road into Martham, in a nicely visible spot. He has also said that he will get the ground sorted out, along with a base for the stone etc so that it will look good. It’s coming on well…..
By: Snapper - 3rd December 2002 at 21:11
RE: Tom writes some more…
I couldn’t ask for more? I could:
From Roy Payne’s son Mike, who spoke to him last week about his role in the engagement, copied and pasted for your interest.
“He and de Selys were scambled to help out the previous pilots, and he
reckons it probably took about ten minutes to reach the MTBs, flying to mid-Channel at about 300 mph.
He said:- “Just as we flew overhead the MTB’s, we couldn’t believe our luck; just about two miles ahead we spotted a very old Junkers 52 three-engined transport plane heading North, just inside the French coastline. We headed towards it, but fantastic flak came up at us from the coastal defences. As we were concentrating so hard on the JU 52 we made the classic mistake; we stopped scanning the sky for enemy aircraft. In those few seconds, I saw tracer flash over my wings from behind. We both broke away suddenly. I turned steeply then saw them (the FW190’s) go up into cloud. I followed them in, and on re-emerging saw two planes. I thought the one in front of
the other was Jean, so I called out to him on the radio. Then I opened fire on the closest of the two and saw my shells rip into his wing and lots of white smoke emerge from the fuselage. I thought I couldn’t claim it as destroyed because I hadn’t seen it hit the water, however on returning to Manston the Intelligence boys gave it to me. I think they wanted to keep the numbers up. Afterwards, de Selys and I wondered whether the JU52 was there as a decoy, but quickly realised that logistically it would have been impossible. It turned out that Jean’s was not one of the pair of aircraft that I saw emerging from the cloud, as he had corkscrewed away.”
Dad says that after that day he insisted that no tracer rounds were everloaded on his aircraft, because it really takes away the element of
surprise.”
By: Tom_W - 29th November 2002 at 19:07
RE: Tom writes some more…
Blimey, you couldn’t ask for more really. Well done me ol’ son, great job you’re doing there and keep up the good work.
Tom 😉
By: Snapper - 29th November 2002 at 18:14
RE: Tom writes some more…
Ha. Another half page in this weeks, for corrections of my errors and additions to the previous piece (though the Mercury made two more mistakes at least!)and guess what?
I have made contact with Johnny’s sister, and the farmer now owning the Wisemans old place (who himself did 27 ops as a gunner in Lancasters, and who’s cousin died as a Blenheim pilot) has written back to me with a very positive reply to my request for a site for the memorial…
Not too bad, eh?
By: Snapper - 26th November 2002 at 11:04
RE: Tom writes some more…
Found these now:
Typhoons Win Fighter Battle
Four FW190’s were shot down over the Channel yesterday afternoon by a Scotsman, two Belgians and a Polish pilot. Two of our pilots are missing.
Six pilots from the West Riding of Yorkshire Auxiliary Squadron were over the Channel in their Typhoons when they saw a couple of high-speed launches being attacked by five or six FW 190’s. The Typhoons sailed in and a “dog-fight” developed.
One of the Belgians had already shot down two FW 190’s and yesterday he doubled his score.
News Chronicle, 15th February 1943.
Typhoons to rescue: four F.W.s down
Four F.W.190’s were shot down for a cost of two R.A.F. planes in fights over the Channel yesterday. In one fight Typhoons of the West Riding Auxiliary Squadron broke up an attack by six F.W.190s on two high-speed launches.
Daily Express, 18th February 1943.
TYPHOONS ROUT NEWEST NAZI FIGHTERS
F.W.s Routed While Attacking Launches
The battles of the F.W.s began when six pilots from the West Riding of Yorkshire Auxiliary Squadron, flying over the Channel in their Typhoons, saw a couple of high-speed launches being attacked by five or six enemy planes. The Typhoons promptly went in to attack.
A Belgian pilot was leading a section when, in his own words: “We met four F.W.190’s. They did not see us until we fired. They split up immediately and after a dogfight for four or five minutes I saw my No. 2 shooting at one F.W.190 and being chased by another.
“I turned to help him and hit the Hun, who went straight into the water. I climbed again, found my No. 2 and resumed patrol, as there were on other enemy aircraft in sight.
Daily Telegraph
By: Snapper - 23rd November 2002 at 10:20
RE: Tom writes some more…
The Logbook Entry and Gunnery Report of Flying Officer Roy Payne:
Roy Payne’s Logbook States: Feb 14, Typhoon PR-H, Escorting MT Boats, 50mins duration, 1 FW 190 destroyed over Calais. Plus a swastika of course…
The Fighter Pilot’s Gunnery Record States that on February 14th 1943 Roy Payne fired 120 rounds (cannon) and used 1.5 feet of film when shooting down an Fw190 in Hawker Typhoon PR-H R7854.
And guess what, I have had a few calls so far through the article, and there IS a mention of Johnny’s name on the memorial at Martham – apparently he was a Martham boy. His parents were bact at Ashby-with-Oby at the time CWGC details were taken. ‘Amy’ was wrong!! Will add more details later on – am filling in earlier life details right now. Memorial plaque will still go ahead with luck anyway – why not eh?! Perhaps on the roadside by the farm his father owned, or in the church. we’ll see. Am heading out to Martham shortly.
By: Tom_W - 22nd November 2002 at 19:28
RE: Tom writes some more…
Congrats at the publication “Amy” 😉 Bloody cheeky some of these damn reporters eh? So we have a ‘scouser living in norfolk’ (said in the style of Sting in a song about some bloke in New York) in our midst, those goddam F-15’s are bloody noisy, especially when you have your radio up in your tractor and the buggers sneak up on you, it’s just not cricket old boy, they were always buzzing around Sculthorpe and RAynham when I was living at home, don’t get back as often as I’d like nowadays though. The Tempest is progressing slowly and there is lots of enthusiasm to get her in the air but a reliable powerplant is one of the obstacles to overcome yet! Here’s a link to my piccies on webshots.
http://community.webshots.com/user/kartmann109
enjoy.
Tom 😉
By: Snapper - 22nd November 2002 at 10:19
RE: Tom wrote
Well, publication date has arrived (for the first publication anyway!).
2 errors to report – Alan ‘Base’ Haddon instead of Alan ‘Babe’ Haddon – just a typo, no real cause for concern. More worrying is the way my name is spelt – Amy Lyall instead of Mark Crame! It would appear that not only have I acquired a different pen name, but also a different pen sex! Hmm. Not really cricket, is it old boy? Still, we must be thankful, as the Great Yarmouth Mercury is carrying a double page spread on Johnny and the appeal. That’s what counts really. We have a previously unpublished pic of Johnny, (a still from ‘Between friends), the oft-seen one of Johnny and Babe on a Typhoon, and a head and shoulders of Mayer. It looks good!
So, in order to help towards the appeal, if any of you would like to order a copy, I will send them to you for the grand price of just over five times the cover price (£2.50 instead of 45p) in order to cover postage, and kickstart the collection. Of course, you can have multiple copies, or pay more if you wish…..
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November 10, 2002 at 1:01 pm