No depths these boys wont plumb….

Adam Walker is a disgusting, anti-British traitor. Apparently he’s married to a Japanese woman so that is probably why he is so fond of them, and seemingly prefers to honour their war dead when the people of Britain commemorated those who had fought against the Japanese (and the innocent British civilians who had also been imprisoned in Japanese torture camps).

While we’re on the subject of demonising parties, what about the other “main” parties who have convicted paedophiles and expenses fiddlers in their midst?

Not forgetting the Catholic church and the fact that they covered up disgusting child abuse by their own priests.

Oppama.

You are correct in saying that I don’t know what goes on in Japanese families today, that I don’t know how much of the real truth is told. I can’t know that but successive Japanese Governments continue to whitewash their history quite unashamedly. I can’t know, but I have read the accounts of those who were subject to the excesses of the Japanese, have even heard their voices as they reminisce in quiet and halting tones at the NMA. I have seen a man who was incarcerated in Changi break down as he sat in the lych gate which has been transported back from a fetid prison in Singapore to the tranquility of the Staffordshire countryside. I have listened to the children of FEPOW’s who have had lifelong struggles with Fathers who were damaged, not only physically, but emotionally and spiritually, by their experiences at the hands of the Japanese.

Eric Lomax suffered terribly at the hands of the Japanese. He survived a series of beatings in which two of his fellow Officers were killed and their bodies removed and disposed of in a latrine. He has visited Yasukuni, so perhaps it is best to let his words describe what Yasukuni means to him.

The shrine is at one level a moving war memorial, dedicated to the worship of those who died for the Emperor, but at another it is an unashamed celebration of militarism. Cherry blossom trees are bedecked with little white ribbons with personal messages and requests. In the grounds you can find a monument to the Kempeitai – it is like seeing a memorial to the Gestapo in a German Cathedral. In front of a museum building next to the shrine, and very much part of it, is parked a field gun, for all the world like the Imperial War Museum in London – except that this is a place of religious worship. And alongside the artillery piece, there is an immaculate C56 steam locomotive, described by the shrine authorities as the first engine to pass along the Burma Railway. It stands proud, its smoke-deflectors polished and its great wheels pressing down into the gravel, its beauty a monument to barbarism.

Nagase (an interpreter who interrogated Lomax on many occasions) told me how he had protested vigorously when the C56 was installed at Yasukuni in 1979. He wrote to the officials of the shrine, and reminded anyone who would listen that Tojo is reputed to have visited Siam when the construction of the railway was about to start, and said that it must be completed even though one prisoner should die for every sleeper on the line; and Nagase had pointed out that this particular engine demanded a sleeper for evey metre of track. Both Tojo, as a soldier of the Emperor and the machine are worshipped at Yakusuni.

Oppama, in an earlier post you wrote the following….

Really, it seems that nothing will ever be ‘enough’.

You may be right. Would the execution of the Emperor have been a good start? My Uncle fought against the Japanese in Burma. A quiet, caring man who through circumstances led a hard life. He spoke little of his time in Burma. But once, when I was considerably younger and possibly slightly less naive than I am now, I asked him a question regarding the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I had seen a programme suggesting that the second bomb was unnecessary. His answer was that as far as he was concerned, two were not enough. A flat emotionless anger belied by the way his knuckles tightened against the garden tool he was holding and a mistiness in his eyes.

Perhaps we are now at the point where we are too late to ask the opions of those who truly matter just what would be enough.

Regards,

kev35

Tornado64,

Do you, by any chance, post on another forum elsewhere under the name “wolfpaw”?

my reading would be prefered from a neutral point of view

The ‘argument’ that you have advanced about dresden is hardly neutral,it was not just the sleepy little town that the revisionists/armchair historians would have us believe.
You talk with a young persons Black/White view on things…life aint like that normally 😉

Why do you never answer the questions asked? You still persist in posting badly written drivel.

At least I try to inject a modicum of spelling, punctuation and grammar into my drivel.

You may well be able to educate us all but just posting little snippets of ‘information’ without constructing a proper argument, or even trying to, is an absolutely pointless waste of time.

If you haven’t/won’t read taylor on Dresden, then who have you read and why then do you accept such a one sided view?

Regards,

kev35

Go read Frederick Taylor’s book on Dresden. Then come back with an informed opinion.

Rich

no thanks !! my reading would be prefered from a neutral point of view

not my own british point of view !!

the war was practicaly over and we destroyed a full city ( mostly civillians )

putting that into context was a second nuke so close to the first the best tactics in japan

apart from testing on people and a city there was very little point in the second

as talks would have more than likeley seen surrender knowing what they were up against

it is intresting when we talk about WMD that we are the only ones to have used them !!

Moderator Message

Gentlemen,

This thread is sailing perilously close to the dreaded rock that is Item 5 of the Code of Conduct.

Tone it down a little, please.

Thanks

GA

I’m not in denial of anything. I understand and fully recognise what went on. Why on earth would you think otherwise?

Some of the things you mentioned earlier gave that impression; in particular about how and what current generations learn of the actions taken by their military in WW2. You personally seem to have a grasp of things as is evidenced in this thread; but you can’t really speak for a nation, can you?

I think you need to look a little further into your claim that there have been NO apologies. It is clearly not the case.

I’ve not said there were NO apologies. In fact there have been numerous to various groups. They are all the same though. A neat little statement saying that the current government feels sympathy and remorse. Then all the little caveats pointing out that there’s no direct evidence of military involvement etc. It cheapens it, you know? But then again that’s governments for you… and it’s not just Japan that needs to learn to apologise sincerely.

But, as said before now, given the enormity and complexity of the subject I don’t think anything will ever be truly adequate, will it?

I think you’re right. I don’t think it will. A relative of mine was a POW on the Burma-Siam railway, he wouldn’t talk of it and didn’t like the Japanese… I don’t think he was a minority either.

Regards,

Rich

I’m not making excuses here, but remember…
All countries have their fair share of nutters.

When it’s the majority of the population, then I’ll burn my Toyota (if I had a Toyota).

You are so blinkered!! No doubt you’ll be insisting Unit 731 didn’t exist next.

I’m not in denial of anything. I understand and fully recognise what went on. Why on earth would you think otherwise?

I think you need to look a little further into your claim that there have been NO apologies. It is clearly not the case.

But, as said before now, given the enormity and complexity of the subject I don’t think anything will ever be truly adequate, will it?

Why do the people responsible for Yasukuni and the associated museum wish to display a Japanese steam locomotive retrieved from the Burma/Siam railway and used on that railway constructed at the cost of thousands of prisoners of war and slave labourers?

Have you considered that the locomotive may in fact be a form of acknowledgement of what took place? It seems to be all too easy to believe that it is some kind of trophy. At the very least, its presence there will always keep some hope of debate on the subject alive. If you were to visit it, you might come away with a different opinion about it being there ( I would hope ). I did.

I strikes me that many people talk about this subject without having even the vaguest idea about Japan, or any sense of how Japan deals with such things. Even as I’m writing this, I’m sure people are just seeing what they want to see in my words. I’m afraid I’m in no way adequately equipped to convey any sense of the way that Japan deals with matters such as commemoration, remorse and the paying of respects. How inadequate I am.

At least 14 executed war criminals are commemorated, including Tojo. Five million people visit each year to commemorate and venerate war criminals. And I notice you have failed to mention the Kempeitai Memorial within the shrine.

How can civilised people show ‘respect to and awe of’ war criminals? Japan has never nor will never accept complete responsibility for the excesses shown by their armed forces in the greater East Asian War.

Yasukuni is a far bigger place, a bigger concept than those “at least 14” individuals. We could ask why those people have been included there, and yes it would be better from our point of view had they had not been, but you can’t write off the whole of Yasukuni just because of this. Do you honestly believe that 5 million annual visitors go there to specifically focus on those people? Was I myself honouring these convicted war criminals by visiting Yasukuni? Of course not. Please try to look at this from the point of view of an ordinary Japanese citizen, who is very likely to visit Yasukuni to pay their respects to a relative, another ordinary citizen who found themselves in the middle of something that they did not necessarily understand or want, but that they went along with because they thought that was what they were supposed to do.

Unless of course you think that every single individual Japanese person – both then and now – is ‘guilty’ in the same way that your “at least 14” were?

You are right to question my use of the word honour. You would have me believe that honour is not a japanese word or a concept understood by Japan. It doesn’t really improve things if I substitute the words humanity and decency where I used honour does it? Or are those words and concepts alien to Japan?

I think you know what I was trying to express. These concepts are ours when they are in our language, and we apply them to a situation being viewed from our perspective. In Japanese culture ( especially so 65 and more years ago ) such concepts are subtly different in context and meaning, and become so much more subjective when the topic is one such as this. Do you honestly feel that there is no humanity or decency in Japan?

You are also correct in stating that the number of recognised war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni is a minority. But you can’t tell me that those 14 men were responsible for all the atrocities committed by the Japanese during World War Two?

No, I can’t tell you that. It seems that you would only be satisfield if every single person commemorated at Yasukuni was judged on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps you would also like to include the millions of Japanese war dead who are not included at Yasukuni?

You are right in assuming I have never been to Japan. But I have had contact with British Veterans of the war against the Japanese. I have seen, read and heard their views.

I have heard from both sides. My Uncle was in the Chindits, and my father in law was in the IJN ( he was a surgeon on hospital ships all over the Pacific ). Having grown up with the stories of one side, I came to the other with some preconceptions. I soon found that it wasn’t quite so black and white. What a luxury it was to see everything in terms of simple right and wrong, and good and bad. I don’t have that luxury anymore.

I won’t bore you with any anecdotes from the point of view of an IJN surgeon – or any other ordinary Japanese people I’ve met and spoken to from that generation – as I’m sure they won’t make any difference here. They made me feel differently though. Now I see good and bad on both sides. Certainly the view from there, looking back at here, was subtly different…

I take heart from the occasions where I have seen past opponents – if not reconciled – at least coming to some form of understanding about eachother. Too bad we are doomed to forget, and to begin again.

Alan T.

You state that Japan has made no admission or apology, but this is clearly not the case. There have been many official admissions and apologies by successive Japanese governments. Even one made before the United Nations. I’m afraid that people just don’t want to accept, or don’t even want to hear.

You are so blinkered!! No doubt you’ll be insisting Unit 731 didn’t exist next.

Whatever happens at home.. whatever is told.. if it is not first hand, comes from texts. From information – all of which was heavily censored until as late as 1995. So what will this generation have learned from – given that they weren’t there to actually witness it, and the written histories are lacking in content? They will learn and perpetuate a lie.

The apology to the UN was in 1998 regarding “Comfort Women”… the blatant forced prostitution of women from Korea, China, Japan and Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia, amongst others in military brothels. It was so worded that it was acknowledged by the Japanese government; but even the it was flat denied that it was the military that had been responsible for it. Later it was retracted.

Therefore, it is NOT an apology.

It is not that people don’t want to hear an apology. The repeated attempts by Japan to word them in such a way to avoid confronting their own shame makes them virtually worthless.

Rich

Please understand that I wasn’t talking about history textbooks, about what has been “removed” from them, or indeed what may or may not have been in them in the first place. I’m talking about what goes on at home, and within families.

Therein lies the problem. The Japanese Government has decided that much accurate history has been removed, or as you say never recorded, purely to give the lie to the excesses perpetrated by the Japanese. Why do the people responsible for Yasukuni and the associated museum wish to display a Japanese steam locomotive retrieved from the Burma/Siam railway and used on that railway constructed at the cost of thousands of prisoners of war and slave labourers?

The following is taken directly from the website of the Yasukuni Shrine.

Japanese people believe that their respect to and awe of the deceased is best expressed by treating the dead in the same manner as they were alive. Hence, at Yasukuni Shrine, rituals to offer meals and to dedicate words of appreciation to the dead are repeated every day. And, twice every year－in the spring and autumn－major rituals are conducted, on which occasion offerings from His Majesty the Emperor are dedicated to them, and also attended by members of the imperial family.

Thus, Yasukuni Shrine has deep relationship with the Japanese imperial family. Also, five million people visit the shrine every year since it is known as a central institution for commemorating those who died in wars.

At least 14 executed war criminals are commemorated, including Tojo. Five million people visit each year to commemorate and venerate war criminals. And I notice you have failed to mention the Kempeitai Memorial within the shrine.

How can civilised people show ‘respect to and awe of’ war criminals? Japan has never nor will never accept complete responsibility for the excesses shown by their armed forces in the greater East Asian War.

Oppama is right, apologies (of a kind) have been made, but some of those have also been retracted have they not?

You are right to question my use of the word honour. You would have me believe that honour is not a japanese word or a concept understood by Japan. It doesn’t really improve things if I substitute the words humanity and decency where I used honour does it? Or are those words and concepts alien to Japan?

You are also correct in stating that the number of recognised war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni is a minority. But you can’t tell me that those 14 men were responsible for all the atrocities committed by the Japanese during World War Two?

You are right in assuming I have never been to Japan. But I have had contact with British Veterans of the war against the Japanese. I have seen, read and heard their views. I would suggest that if Japan had suffered the atrocities which they as a nation, in the name of the Emperor, inflicted on others, then I respectfully suggest there would have been plenty written in Japanese history books about that.

Regards,

kev35

Really? So the Japanese authorities have started putting back the bits they conveniently removed from history textbooks (regarding Nanking and other atrocities) immediately post-war then?

Please understand that I wasn’t talking about history textbooks, about what has been “removed” from them, or indeed what may or may not have been in them in the first place. I’m talking about what goes on at home, and within families.

So far there hasn’t been an admission or an apology from Japan for any of the evil done…

As to not knowing what to do to apologise? A simple statement of apology from the Japanese government would be a good starting point.

You state that Japan has made no admission or apology, but this is clearly not the case. There have been many official admissions and apologies by successive Japanese governments. Even one made before the United Nations. I’m afraid that people just don’t want to accept, or don’t even want to hear.

Really, it seems that nothing will ever be ‘enough’.

My personal experience is that there is understanding and acknowledgement – on a personal level – of much that occurred. Children in Japan – trying not to generalise – in my experience often are taught about that period, but not just about the atrocities of their own side.

Really? So the Japanese authorities have started putting back the bits they conveniently removed from history textbooks (regarding Nanking and other atrocities) immediately post-war then?

As to one of your other points; a country speaks as an entity to other countries through its leaders. So far there hasn’t been an admission or an apology from Japan for any of the evil done; in fact in recent times “they” (the leaders) have sought to retract previous attempts at apologies or admissions of wrong doing.

Hardly an attempt at understanding or acknowledging things.

As to not knowing what to do to apologise? A simple statement of apology from the Japanese government would be a good starting point.

Rich

Is Yasukuni a shrine to all those souls, or Kami, who died in the service of the Emperor? And among those souls, or Kami, are all of those who were tried, convicted and executed for their crimes also remembered?

More than two and a half million individuals are enshrined at Yasukuni, and of course it has a history dating back more than 120 years. I have no idea exactly how many of those individuals were “tried, convicted and executed for their crimes”, but certainly a minority. Looking in from the outside, we may well be offended by the fact that such individuals are enshrined in the same place as others who might be considered innocent, but that’s our judgement on a situation that becomes more complicated the deeper you get into it.

I have no idea if you have ever been to Japan, or if you have even met any Japanese people from ‘that’ generation, but my personal experience is that it is not quite so easy to pass judgment when in Japan, or when standing in front of a Japanese veteran / civilian. There are millions of voices, millions of personal experiences.

It is the association of the Japanese people with Yasukuni that concerns me, not Issuikai. Are we not talking about a Nation which prides itself on honour, honouring those who showed no trace of honour in the 1930’s and 1940’s?

But this is part of my point. ‘The Japanese people’ do not have one unified voice. We can only generalise about these things, but you write as though Japan is able to speak and think as a single entity. It’s not as simple as that, is it?

You talk about “honour”, and then “no trace of honour”, but these are not Japanese words. Your concept of “honour” is something that you can’t really expect to match up exactly with any similar concept in Japan. And let’s not forget that we are talking about a Japanese society that is now very different from what it was in the middle of the last century, too.

No, I really don’t know how a Nation or a people can apologise or atone for such atrocities when even sixty five years after their defeat, they refuse to acknowledge that they occurred and do not teach their children of the evil that their ancestors were responsible for.

Again, who are “they”? My personal experience is that there is understanding and acknowledgement – on a personal level – of much that occurred. Children in Japan – trying not to generalise – in my experience often are taught about that period, but not just about the atrocities of their own side. In talking to the younger generations in Japan, I myself have found that they know far more about that period than most of their contemporaries outside Japan.

So, like me, you don’t know what Japan can do to apologise and atone. It seems to me that nothing will be enough, and would also be seen as too late. We might be well advised to look back to the immediate post-VJ period to see the root causes of that. But modern Japanese society does confront and debate these issues, in case anyone was thinking that it does not.

Oppama.

I’m prepared to be educated or corrected so here goes.

Is Yasukuni a shrine to all those souls, or Kami, who died in the service of the Emperor? And among those souls, or Kami, are all of those who were tried, convicted and executed for their crimes also remembered? It is the association of the Japanese people with Yasukuni that concerns me, not Issuikai. Are we not talking about a Nation which prides itself on honour, honouring those who showed no trace of honour in the 1930’s and 1940’s?

I don’t know in what form Japan can provide an apology. I really don’t. I wasn’t there to suffer at the hands of the Japanese. But there are those still living who were there. Lives blighted by the armed forces of a Nation whose flawed code of honour led to an incalculable number of atrocities. The use of germ warfare and chemical weapons in China, wholesale slaughter of civilians in China, the massacre of doctors, nurses and patients in Singapore, the murder of Australian nurses on an island in the Banka Strait, the Selarang incident. The ill treatment of prisoners and the murders of those too ill to work, the death marches, the murder of prisoners for the purpose of cannibalism, the twisted stranglehold the Japanese authorities had over their own people which led to numerous civilian suicides on Okinawa. The Maru’s (Japanese transports used to carry prisoners to Japan in conditions which led to them being called Hell ships) and the rape and murder of women and children throughout every piece of territory occupied by the Japanese.

No, I really don’t know how a Nation or a people can apologise or atone for such atrocities when even sixty five years after their defeat, they refuse to acknowledge that they occurred and do not teach their children of the evil that their ancestors were responsible for.

Yasukuni, while it immortalises the souls of the Kempeitai and glorifies the excesses of the Burma/Siam and Sumatra railways, can never be considered a place of honour.

Regards,

kev35

….but you have to consider what Yasukuni is and what it means to the Japanese people.

May I ask, do you know what Yasukuni means “to the Japanese people”?

These characters from the BNP choose to associate with the likes of Issuikai, but nobody should be jumping to the conclusion that Issuikai in any way represent “the Japanese people” any more than the BNP represent “the British people”.

How should Japan apologise? What words ( and in what language ) will be judged adequate? What gesture? Who will judge?

These are not rhetorical questions. I’m genuinely interested in hearing what people think should have happened, or what should happen now…

Thanks.

Try a few main religions to, no on second thoughts all of them:D

I suspect the crimes listed in kev’s opening paragraph are not unique to the members or supporters of the BNP.

Dave.

I’m not suggesting for a moment that they are, I expect most of them appear in the membership of Sinn Fein too.

Regards,

kev35