Mr Humpty Dumpty and Lady Who to lead Europe

Interflug – in respect of your final sentence, I could not agree more!

Well that’s a fair point of view, Interflug. Without going back over old ground where we differ, do you have a view on the dismantling of at least some of the bureaucracy in the name of better, less complex administration?

Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m under no illusion that the EU is perfect. To my mind it is an entity still in evolution. Yes the administration IS top heavy and has been for some time, it will be in the interests of all those involved with the running of the organisation to streamline and make more efficient all aspects of the administration processes, after all we all know what happens to top heavy ships! and IMO the Lisbon Treaty will make a major contribution to that end. As mentioned in the article that you were kind enough to highlight, the CAP is one of the many policies that are ripe for comprehensive reform although I remain to be convinced that dismantling it will cure all ills. Mention of cutting back on regulation makes my blood run cold, especially taking into account the crisis of capitalism that we appear to be witnessing at present and the thoughtless actions of many of those so called educated people in ‘high places’ in the UK that along with their counterparts across the pond have helped to bring it about. Its high time that this Govt made more effort to highlight the positive aspects of EU membership because there ARE some. No governmental organisation is cheap and there is waste everywhere one looks and I applaud any effort made in the EU to cut it down. A great shame that we don’t see the same from the shower running the show in the UK.

A well written piece for those with his point of view, but it is not mine. I am sure that he goes to bed each night as comfortable with his beliefs as I, which makes us both fortunate beings.;)

Well that’s a fair point of view, Interflug. Without going back over old ground where we differ, do you have a view on the dismantling of at least some of the bureaucracy in the name of better, less complex administration?

A well written piece for those with his point of view, but it is not mine. I am sure that he goes to bed each night as comfortable with his beliefs as I, which makes us both fortunate beings.;)

Daniel Hannan, the hero of Europhobes and the scourge of Europhiles puts the situation rather well in today’s Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/6622384/Daniel-Hannan-EU-is-in-a-democratic-mess.html

And like or not there is a great deal of sense in what he writes.

baz, I take on board what you are saying but IMO the issue has to be dealt with as things are today. I’m sure you’ll agree that the international landscape is vastly different from the days of what was then termed the ‘Common Market’. Personally as a rule I don’t believe in referenda as a principle, to me they represent weak government and I would not want to see them as common practice here. I take what you say about the mis leading way that certain politicians have handled the EU issue. The political parties should never have promised the referendum if they had no intention of providing it, but thats politicians for you! So much time has been wasted by the leaders here in wrangling with themselves over Europe that we have been left behind by events and the other states who have moved on, I don’t believe we should denegrate them for that. As a federalist I look at this from the point of view that clinging to the ideal of sovereignty is a falsehood. So many aspects of our country’s life and activity is dictated by the influence, policies and objectives of others more powerful than ourselves, and I don’t just mean European countries. IMHO we need the EU to be a credible and efficient counterweight to nations or groups of nations that are on the verge of changing the geo-political face of the world with their rising economic and in some cases, political power. Personally I view the Lisbon Treaty as a major step towards achieving that. Bearing the above in mind will a referendum here change much on the world scene which ever way it goes? I’m not sure that it would.

Interflug…I think you misunderstand my comments about referendums etc.We have never had one !!
The 1975 vote was whether to stay in the EEC as it was then ,successive British Governments have never gone to the British people for a mandate to get deeper involved in Europe,which is why I say it has been done in an undemocratic way,I dont know if we could get out of it now without serious problems,but we sure could have done ok if we had not been led down the garden path in the first place.
Sorry but the way the whole thing has been orchestrated leaves a nasty taste.

rgds baz

bazy and Sky High…….Yes I think we’ll have to agree to differ and it will be very interesting to see how this issue turns out. As far as the matter of a referendum is concerned I would have no objection to one provided it was a serious debate on the true pros and cons of the matter and not one composed of issues such as straight bananas and its best to hate Johnny Foreigner or some such premise orchestrated by The Sun and its ilk, but I fear that is just how it would be and this is far too much an important issue to have it conducted in that way. I thank you both for an honest and constructive debate on what is for me a real ‘soapbox’ issue. And Distiller, I think you are right on the button. Cheers 😉

Agreed Interflug and thanks for the debate. And I do agree with you about the level of debate required if a referendum were to be held.

bazy and Sky High…….Yes I think we’ll have to agree to differ and it will be very interesting to see how this issue turns out. As far as the matter of a referendum is concerned I would have no objection to one provided it was a serious debate on the true pros and cons of the matter and not one composed of issues such as straight bananas and its best to hate Johnny Foreigner or some such premise orchestrated by The Sun and its ilk, but I fear that is just how it would be and this is far too much an important issue to have it conducted in that way. I thank you both for an honest and constructive debate on what is for me a real ‘soapbox’ issue. And Distiller, I think you are right on the button. Cheers 😉

Well Interflug…looks like we will have to agree to differ,but I think you are ignoring my point about the lack of a vote to be part of a federal europe…there has not even been a pretence of any form of democracy on that issue.
Glad you guys in Essex got some EU funding for a bypass,but at the moment we are not even maintaining our existing roads.
It is Hardly the medias fault that we have not been offered any vote about Europes direction…no I am afraid we have been misled and lied to by our politicians over Europe since at least 1970,not a good start for a Federal Europe.
I also said that we should have done the same as Norway,we only need to have close trade ties with Europe,as I said previously – the original aim of free trade etc within Europe was a great idea,the rest is yet another financial black hole to pour our money into ad nauseum.

rgds baz

I’m with you on this Bazv. I was an ardent Common Marketeer but am totally opposed to the EU. And I do not share the Europhiles warnings about the UK outside the EU. In the long run I don’t think it will affect our trading relationships, which is all that matters, but will enable us to regain responsibility for our own affairs.

Well Interflug…looks like we will have to agree to differ,but I think you are ignoring my point about the lack of a vote to be part of a federal europe…there has not even been a pretence of any form of democracy on that issue.
Glad you guys in Essex got some EU funding for a bypass,but at the moment we are not even maintaining our existing roads.
It is Hardly the medias fault that we have not been offered any vote about Europes direction…no I am afraid we have been misled and lied to by our politicians over Europe since at least 1970,not a good start for a Federal Europe.
I also said that we should have done the same as Norway,we only need to have close trade ties with Europe,as I said previously – the original aim of free trade etc within Europe was a great idea,the rest is yet another financial black hole to pour our money into ad nauseum.

rgds baz

What kills the EU is the unwillingness of its members to go the next logical step: to drop the nation states in favour of a federation of regions. And yes, this would be the Euro-Superstate, but it’s the only option. Otherwise the EU will always remain a pawn in the big game of the U.S., Russia, and increasingly China. People might not like that, but if you have your roots in Europe but spend most of your time in the countries of these big players, it becomes very clear. Sadly the EU is sooo behind the curve, and those two new clowns make things even worse – designed to fail!

I would be genuinely interested to hear from those who oppose the EU what their vision is for the UK without membership. Thanks.
______

See my earlier posts. I think we should be offered an “in or out” referendum and the government of the day should commit to the decision – “in or out”.

Ah well… if you have lived here for 51 years then I am sure you are aware that a large percentage of people in this country would not even give europe a passing thought during a General Election.
There could well be benefits of EU membership and I am sure that the many thousands of EU employees who milk the system daily are very grateful for the chance to do so.
I personally only know one person who thinks being in the EU is a good thing,I think that is quite shocking !!
Personally I would like to see a small proportion of our EU contribution being diverted to properly resurface our country ‘A’ roads (not trunk routes) ,I cannot remember the last time that I was held up by major work on the roads I generally use (Sussex,Hampshire,Wiltshire), the condition of them is absolutely appalling.

rgds baz

I think that your opening few lines say it all;) Thanks to the British media and many of the low calibre politicians of all parties who have run this place for decades, Europe and the EU has been turned into a scapegoat for many, and there are many, of this countries ills. Personally I know very many people who think that being in the EU is a good thing. That may be due to the fact that I work in aviation which in itself may orientate the way that many of us in that industry see Europe and other issues, but maybe that is a topic for another thread. As for the roads argument, well I cant argue with you there. I spend quite a lot of my time in Europe and in Germany in particular and I’m sure I don’t have to extol the virtues of the roads there. Actually where I live in Essex there is a much needed bypass not very far from here with a sign reminding you that the road was built with a grant from the EU, and believe me it was much needed (nasty old EU!) But that was a positive aspect of the Union so not much coverage of the road in the media here. My friend in Germany whom I have known since schooldays has lived there with his German wife for 27 years and they have two children. Although his parents are still here he would never move back. He reckons that the UK is in a relentless and steady decline and really cannot understand the ordinary British persons attitude to the EU, what it does and the benefits it brings and neither can I. In fact on one visit a few years ago there was an exhibition in his home towns square outlining the Euro currency plans….don’t think I ever saw one of those here, apparently these roadshows are common there explaining the policy initiatives of the Union, and these are funded with the national Govts help! Can you imagine that in the UK and the press it would bring?? He also highlights the poor state of the UKs education system and health service as the main reasons for staying put along with the law and order situation here.

I am an unashamed federalist and I make no apologies for that. Having spent much time in Europe the UKs perception of the Union seems sad and at the same time unfathomable and I just don’t get it. IMO we are missing out due to the self serving attitudes of many, but not all, of those who ‘watch over us’ and their media that keeps us all ‘well informed’ The main losers here in the UK will be our children and their children. And as for Norway, they benefit nicely from favourable trading terms and exemption from tariffs from the EU without putting into the ‘kitty’ and maybe without its oil the Norwegian attitude might be very different, and remember the UK helps fund those ‘favours’ to the likes of Norway.

I would be genuinely interested to hear from those who oppose the EU what their vision is for the UK without membership. Thanks.

I am, by nature, an anti-federalist, but those who are will welcome the new structure and enjoy watching as the EU builds its empire across the globe, but its not for me.

Absolutely…I forgot to mention the size of the EU,we are and always will be an insignificant little pimple on the side of the EU dinosaur as it waddles into its self importance.
In my view – we should have followed the same path as Norway,who are members of the EEA (European Economic Area) and EFTA (European Free Trade Association),Norway has held 2 referendums about becoming full members and both times said ‘NO’ – at least their politicians can see that it is a very divisive issue and to their credit have not forced the issue again (yet).
Has Norway withered and died because they are not full members ?? of course not and it is just silly to suppose that the UK would have died if we had not joined.
I am not anti Europe,but I am anti waste , extravagance and corruption.
As Interflug said…we have enough corruption here ..if one simply extrapolates that across to the size of the EU as a body…the trough is potentially massive.

rgds baz

Yes you’re right..I’ve only lived here 51 years and been a Labour activist for 22 of them (until the arrival of Blair), so what do I know of British politics and those who practice them! I eagerly await the answer to your question ref the happiness factor in the “old” member states of the EU, I would genuinely be interested in them along with the source. As for corruption? Well I don’t think we British are in any position to lecture others….do you? I am of the opinion that the argument that Domestic and Europe are very different things is not so, this is an integral part of the views held by those that, come hell or high water, will never see the European point of view nor the many benefits of EU membership.

Ah well… if you have lived here for 51 years then I am sure you are aware that a large percentage of people in this country would not even give europe a passing thought during a General Election.
There could well be benefits of EU membership and I am sure that the many thousands of EU employees who milk the system daily are very grateful for the chance to do so.
I personally only know one person who thinks being in the EU is a good thing,I think that is quite shocking !!
Personally I would like to see a small proportion of our EU contribution being diverted to properly resurface our country ‘A’ roads (not trunk routes) ,I cannot remember the last time that I was held up by major work on the roads I generally use (Sussex,Hampshire,Wiltshire), the condition of them is absolutely appalling.

rgds baz

I refer again to the European Parliament. More democratic I suggest than the internal UK system. This “non democratic” EU stuff does not wash, although it does if you don’t participate to the full within the Union structures and procedures, the UK seems constantly adverse to doing this and then blames all the other members who do for lauding it over the UK, you can’t have it both ways. Seriously, if the UK does not adopt a more positive stance towards the EU and the many benefits of being within it, because we only seem to hear about the negative aspects of that, then I fear the country will be on a hiding to nothing.

The European Parliament has no power. The power is entirely vested in the Council and its officers, who are unelected.

Fair enough.

So……..

How would the UK pay its way in the world?

What vital goods or materials does this country produce or manufacture that non-EU countries would wish to buy from us, or that would induce the EU to negotiate a favourable trade treaty with us?

How long do you think overseas investors would hang around here once the UK was no longer a (comparatively) cheap point of entry into major European markets?

How long do you think London would last as a major financial and legal centre once the UK was no longer a point of entry into major European markets?

Serious questions, with no comforting answers.

Sorry, Grey Area, I had missed your post, so no avoidance of your questions was intended.

I suppose the answer is a single one. No one knows. There is great debate on both sides between those who argue that the UK would be doomed and on the other side by those who feel that little would change other than the UK would regain its ability to choose and decide its policies in its best interests rather than than the EU’s interests. New talk to set new budgets will take place next summer inevitably resulting in even larger payments by the UK and others.

I have seen many and varied opinions as to the real benefits of our membership, as have you, no doubt, by those far more qualified than me, and I am unconvinced that our membership is wholly beneficial.

In the long run I see no reason at all why anything would change significantly – we would continue to sell into the EU as do the other fringe nations and we would continue to buy from the EU on the same basis. And we would be free to maintain the strength of London as a global financial centre , which the EU is about to diminish. Most importantly we would be freed from the onerous costs the EU imposes on its members through its regulatory network.

I am, by nature, an anti-federalist, but those who are will welcome the new structure and enjoy watching as the EU builds its empire across the globe, but its not for me.

You obviously know very little about British Politics and Politicians 😀
Domestic and Europe are very different things 😉

Maybe I can ask you a question ?How many people (as a percentage) in the original (old) member states of the EEC are really happy with the way the EU operates now.
We are now paying for poorer (and more corrupt ?) countries .
Obviously everybody is happy ???

Yes you’re right..I’ve only lived here 51 years and been a Labour activist for 22 of them (until the arrival of Blair), so what do I know of British politics and those who practice them! I eagerly await the answer to your question ref the happiness factor in the “old” member states of the EU, I would genuinely be interested in them along with the source. As for corruption? Well I don’t think we British are in any position to lecture others….do you? I am of the opinion that the argument that Domestic and Europe are very different things is not so, this is an integral part of the views held by those that, come hell or high water, will never see the European point of view nor the many benefits of EU membership.

I thought that was what general elections were for. 😉

You obviously know very little about British Politics and Politicians 😀
Domestic and Europe are very different things 😉

Maybe I can ask you a question ?How many people (as a percentage) in the original (old) member states of the EEC are really happy with the way the EU operates now.
We are now paying for poorer (and more corrupt ?) countries .
Obviously everybody is happy ???