Americas death knell as world police force?

😮 ahh Whats with all the long posts?

What I find amazing, is that these people(Sunnis, Shiite radicals, Arab insurgents) SAY that they want the US out, yet do everything they can to ensure we intensify our actions.

If the GOAL was simply for the US to leave Iraq, and give power to the Iraqis, then they could expidite it by NOT killing US troops, Iraqi police, and each other.

This adds further proof that their GOAL is not the removal of US troops–they are not stupid, and know what they’re doing is causing us to stay.

What they want is POWER. Shiite radicals are backed by Iran, and want a theocractic dictatorship. Sunnis want power, and fear thefuture, where they will not have the SAME power(as they’ve had with Saddam). Plus, they fear revenge from the Shiite’s they’ve oppressed for decades.
The foreign insurgents goal is not a free and democratic Iraq. That is their failure. IF the Iraqis succedde in creating and running such a state, then it will be a victory for the US , the West in general, and a death-knell for those pushing the radical muslim, fundamentalist way of life.

For these reasons, the recent spout of violence is simply evidence that the process is working. Those we seek to defeat, those that wish Iraq to fail, are becoming desparate. They see time is nearly up, and victory for theUS and Iraq is near. These acts of violence are mere acts of desparation, the last chance to try to STOP Iraq from passing into the hands of its own people. For once power is in the hands of Iraqis, the insurgents, and radicals, cannot justify the kilings they have been carrying out.

I think Seahawk has it about right.

It’s interesting that many argue that the coalition (ie the US) is taking to long to hand over power to the Iraqi provisional authority scheduled for this June 30th. More recently, there seems to be many who think that date is premature.

:confused:

Sauron

Originally posted by plawolf
“I do agree, for people like Al-Sadr there is no compromise, he has decided to fight it out and he has to be neutralised. The important part will be how.”

Al-sadr was opposed to the occupation from the start and he made his feeling clear from day one, but he has only now resorted to using his malitia, the question has to be asked, why?

the root of the problem is that the little good will the iraqi ppl had for the occupation forces for removing saddam is wearing thin and totally gone in some places. looking at opinon polls will not change that fact no matter how rose the ppl who compiled them make it seem. did those opion polls show any sign that the whole nation was about to be threwn into caos this week?

iraqis want to have control over their own destinies, the longer the US wait, the more resentful the iraqis wil become and the more difficult for the US to truely hand over power.

I tend to disagree. I think he became active, because his power will dimish when a moderate Iraqi government is in power. It will be much harder to motivate people to fight a legimate and widely accepted Iraqi government (including clerics that are much more respected then he is), then to fight the “unholy crusaders”.

Originally posted by seahawk
(Quote shorted intentionaly)

I do agree, for people like Al-Sadr there is no compromise, he has decided to fight it out and he has to be neutralised. The important part will be how. Bomb a house and kill innocent civilians with him will only make him a hero. Having a big fight with his militia will do the same.

It would be good to cathc him alive and let the Iraqis trial him for murder after they get to power. Then he will loose his followers.
If that does not work it would be most fortunate if one of his men would kill him. Can this be arranged ?? – I hope so.

And the Us must build jobs for the Iraqis. That is extremely important in the long and medium term.

I agree, although, I think a fight with his militia MAY or may not be disasterous–it all depends on how things unfold. The Iraqi police have issued a warrent for his arrest, for the murder fo another(and MUCH more well-liked)Shiite cleric. If the police carry the arrest out, and he is brought to justice befor ethe Iraqis, BY Iraqis, the militias may disband to a point where the die-hard crazies in it are easily delt with.

Hopefully, that’s gpoing to happen. I do fear that he has managed to stir up some of the people that were less vocal, and might show him support, because he is standing up to the coalition. That’s going to complicate things, since, these people are not REALLY with him, and killing them will make them REALLY with him. Touchy situation.

I think the Iraqi trouble makers need a reminder that, at any one point, the US is able to completly destroy the problems, yet we choose not too, because of our “Good intentions”. It seems that they need to be reminded to be respectful of the Coalition forces, else they grow complacent, and attack us.

Most of the officers would rather not be “mean” to them, but they might have to show some force, or they will appear weak or vulnerable, and bait attacks against themselves.

“I do agree, for people like Al-Sadr there is no compromise, he has decided to fight it out and he has to be neutralised. The important part will be how.”

Al-sadr was opposed to the occupation from the start and he made his feeling clear from day one, but he has only now resorted to using his malitia, the question has to be asked, why?

the root of the problem is that the little good will the iraqi ppl had for the occupation forces for removing saddam is wearing thin and totally gone in some places. looking at opinon polls will not change that fact no matter how rose the ppl who compiled them make it seem. did those opion polls show any sign that the whole nation was about to be threwn into caos this week?

iraqis want to have control over their own destinies, the longer the US wait, the more resentful the iraqis wil become and the more difficult for the US to truely hand over power.

Originally posted by pluto77189
Violence won’t work in the end, but it will help put an end to the “rouge” cleric’s militias. ……..
ustify attacks on muslims, who are in a postion to control their OWN destiny, and not at the hand of Western Overlords.

(Quote shorted intentionaly)

I do agree, for people like Al-Sadr there is no compromise, he has decided to fight it out and he has to be neutralised. The important part will be how. Bomb a house and kill innocent civilians with him will only make him a hero. Having a big fight with his militia will do the same.

It would be good to cathc him alive and let the Iraqis trial him for murder after they get to power. Then he will loose his followers.
If that does not work it would be most fortunate if one of his men would kill him. Can this be arranged ?? – I hope so.

And the Us must build jobs for the Iraqis. That is extremely important in the long and medium term.

Oh, they did do a **** poor job. They listened to other clerics, who thought he was going to be more of a threat if captured. Guess they need to fix their mistake.

The polls conducted were done all over Iraq, and separated by regions/city. I think it was in Baghdad, Kurd areas, and the rest of Iraq. Kurds were most supportive of the coalition, but wanted a separate state from the Arabs. Most of the rest of Iraq agreed wit hthe people of Baghdad.

A survey on who the most trusted people in Iraq shows that the Relighous leaders are trusted most, because they are the ones that have always BEEN there for the people. The Coalition is, not surprisingly, on the bottom. Seriously, they just invaded the country, killed thousands, and changed things around. The fact that such a large portion of the poeple actually has ANY trust after only one year, is pretty good, considering the situation.

The cleric in Sadr city, with the miita of 2-3,000 men, was only trusted by 1% of the people polled, the members in the governing council, were ranked highest among individuals.

It supports what we “think” about this guy. Of course, how the people will react to the militias “removal” will be anybody’s guess.

I have a feeling that they will not be happy, hey, he’s a cleric, and we’re Americans, but that they will “understand”(meaning saying they’re upset, but not really doing anything about it, cause they know it HAD to be done).

We’ll see in the coming months.
Al Jezeera is reporting a mosque was hit, with people in it. Interesting to see if the people had AK 47’s and RPGs or not.
Rgardless, that wn’t go over well.

Originally posted by seahawk
That is a quite reasonable assesment of the situation Pluto.

But the problem is that it is really hard to get such fanatic people to change. And I believe that germans were much less fanatic then the islamic terrorists are.

Japan and Germany needed a total defeat which in the end showed the lies of their leaders and so helped to get rid of the ideas spread by them.

The only way to win over those muslem fundamentalists is to prove them wrong. Unfortunately nobody can prove that there will be no 70 virgins waiting in heaven. On the other hand those fanatics are quick to built social organisations that are helping the people. In the meantime US forces have to use force to capture those fanatics, which will always include the death of innocent cvilians. So in the end these action are exactly what the fanatics are saying.

” We will help you, the Americans will come to kill us and you.”
Which is exactly what is happening.

The best way to fight them is to beat them at the things that are helping the people with. If they give food, the US needs to give more. If they help with medical supplies the US must do more. If they give some people jobs, then the US must give jobs to a lot of people.

That is the only way – violence won´t work.

Violence won’t work in the end, but it will help put an end to the “rouge” cleric’s militias. Theya re dead-enders, whose time has passed. The Us had a plan to arrest him a while back, but fellow clerics, who did NOT like him, felt that he was insignificant, and his capture would fuel his followers into action. Since the June deadline is coming, and forces are trying to clean up the people trying to stop the transfer of power, the cleric had to act. If he didn’t, he would be done for once the power was transferred. At least, if he started a “revolt”, he could delay that transfer of power, and prolong his effective powertrip.

His followers are trying to start a revolt,and Al-queada is trying to start a civil war, both, opposed to each other fundamentally, have found that they are on common ground. For both of them, their long term goals(each other’s destruction) are moot, unnatainable, if their short term goals(stopping the transfer of power to IRAQIS) are not accomplished.

since the deadline approcheth, the forcasted losers of the deal(Shiite’s wanting an Iranian, theocratic, paradise&Sunis fearing their inevitable loss of absolute power) would be expected to try something of a last ditch effort to delay what would be a defeat for them–transfer of power to Iraqis, who DO NOT SUPPORT EITHER OF THEM. This transfer puts the insurgents into a bad situation. If they accept it, they will become irrelevant, if they FIGHT, they’re fighting against the will of the majority of Iraqis.
Fighting Iraqis, when the US is no longer in control, will gain them NO favor in Iraq, OR the muslim world.

Some think the soft natured way US troops have delt with insurgents recently has led to a loss of fear(respect) for US forces, which, accordingly, leads to bigger cajones onthe part of anti-US forces—they think they can get away with it.

Now, it looks like more heaft measures will be taken, the remove, once and for all , the people of Fellujia, and the Radical shiite militias, that simply will not accept the future of Iraq as a democratic state.

With them, it seems as if, sadly, violence is the only way to earn respect, and accomplish the goal.

When Iraqis take over, I feel(and hope) violence will be seen as unacceptable in ALL circumstances, by ALL muslims, since the people in power, will be, Iraqi. Then, it will be VERY difficult for even the most radical militant to justify attacks on muslims, who are in a postion to control their OWN destiny, and not at the hand of Western Overlords.

“No, but opinion polls in Iraq, conducted almost daily, are very consistent in their findings. More than half say they are better off NOW than before the war, and much more expect a better future. Over 75% say attacks against coalition forces are unacceptable. While more than half of iraqis feel the war humiliated Iraq, only 10% want the coalition to leave NOW. that speaks volumes. They understand the need for the troops, and are expressing how they felt about being invaded. the “inconsistencies” between how they “feel” and what they want are the most telling information in the polls, and is exactly what I thought they would feel like. Upset about being invaded–it’s embarassing to a proud people–but understanding of the situation.”

would anyone expect opion polls compiled by the occupation authorities to say otherwise?:rolleyes: its easy to find a population segment who would say what u want to hear from them (opinion polled compiled during the vietnam war showed pretty much the same things), its a totally different matter about being able to accuratly guage the mood of the nation, especially when americans are shot on site if not accompanied my a US marine convoy in many parts of the nation.

“Oh, and to clear something up about the arrests of the Clerics to people–they were arrested(by iraqi police, I thought) because they incited violence, and murdered another cleric, who did not call for violence. I would say the fact that he is supported by Iranians, possily funded by them, murdered another Shiite cleric who worked WITH the coalition, and lied to his followers to get them to attack coalition forces, I see no reason why he is still alive. These are the people you TRY to kill in a war. His followers are not that many–some 3,000 in a city of 3 million. They just dress up and march with guns, holding up pictures of him.”

and who exactly can say for sure that he’s done anything the amercians…sorry iraqis say he did? all we have are alligations with zero evidence to back it up. and when was the last time any iraqi had a decent trial when being accused of being ‘counter-coalision’ in iraq?:rolleyes:

if u have bothered to do a little bit of research on the guy, u would realise that many of the values and views he supports are quite radical and not in line with what most iraqis want, but many still back him simply because he has the balls to stand up to the americans. that says volumes about what the iraqi ppl feel about the americans presence doesnt it?

and PS, if his support base is indeed so small, then the US military is doing a pi$$ poor job not being able to contain it with far superior numbers and armed and air support. the fact is his supporters are far more numerous then some would like to admit. and many of them are fighting not because they support this claric, but because they dont like how the americans are doing things in iraq. unless the US address those concerns, these ppl will only grow in number.

That is a quite reasonable assesment of the situation Pluto.

But the problem is that it is really hard to get such fanatic people to change. And I believe that germans were much less fanatic then the islamic terrorists are.

Japan and Germany needed a total defeat which in the end showed the lies of their leaders and so helped to get rid of the ideas spread by them.

The only way to win over those muslem fundamentalists is to prove them wrong. Unfortunately nobody can prove that there will be no 70 virgins waiting in heaven. On the other hand those fanatics are quick to built social organisations that are helping the people. In the meantime US forces have to use force to capture those fanatics, which will always include the death of innocent cvilians. So in the end these action are exactly what the fanatics are saying.

” We will help you, the Americans will come to kill us and you.”
Which is exactly what is happening.

The best way to fight them is to beat them at the things that are helping the people with. If they give food, the US needs to give more. If they help with medical supplies the US must do more. If they give some people jobs, then the US must give jobs to a lot of people.

That is the only way – violence won´t work.

Originally posted by plawolf
[Boh, did u do a refferandum to ask them?:rolleyes:

if the vast majority wanted democracy, then why dont u give it to them instead of having a US hand pick pupet gov to rubber stamp everything? :rolleyes:

and why exactly did the US choose to take out his top ppl? could the little fact that he is a well known and widely respectly iraqi figure who supports an iran style islamic republic have anything to do with it?:rolleyes:

last time i check, democrasy is not about first killing off or imprisoning everyone who has a different view point and then asking the ppl left to vote for one candidate. (does the 99.99 ‘approval’ rate saddam got before the US invaded come to mind?)
[/B]

No, but opinion polls in Iraq, conducted almost daily, are very consistent in their findings. More than half say they are better off NOW than before the war, and much more expect a better future. Over 75% say attacks against coalition forces are unacceptable. While more than half of iraqis feel the war humiliated Iraq, only 10% want the coalition to leave NOW. that speaks volumes. They understand the need for the troops, and are expressing how they felt about being invaded. the “inconsistencies” between how they “feel” and what they want are the most telling information in the polls, and is exactly what I thought they would feel like. Upset about being invaded–it’s embarassing to a proud people–but understanding of the situation.

Apparantly, I had misread the poll results. Democracy is only abot 50%, I had misinterpreted the results showing that only 10% favored an Iran style theocracy to mean that 90% wanted a democracy. I hadn’t known there were other options.

Oh, and to clear something up about the arrests of the Clerics to people–they were arrested(by iraqi police, I thought) because they incited violence, and murdered another cleric, who did not call for violence. I would say the fact that he is supported by Iranians, possily funded by them, murdered another Shiite cleric who worked WITH the coalition, and lied to his followers to get them to attack coalition forces, I see no reason why he is still alive. These are the people you TRY to kill in a war. His followers are not that many–some 3,000 in a city of 3 million. They just dress up and march with guns, holding up pictures of him.

By the way, if people march in the street, and hold up giant pictures of you, to show their support, there’s a pretty good chance you’re evil. Just like if you have a statue made of you, and you’re still alive…or if your picture’s on the currency(and again, you’re not dead yet)…all signs of potential evil…

I can’t think of any example of this withut thinking “evil person”.
Saddam, Stalin, Arafat, dead-wheelchair-bound Hamas sheik, Imperial Japan… North Korea…
I’ve seen many people holding up pictures of this sadr cleric, which is always a good sign of evil…just an observation…not to be taken too seriously.

Perhaps you misunderstand my idea of brainwashing.

The NAzis were, in a large part, believers in their superiorities. The German soilders may not have been, but they sure as heck followed orders, as any soldier would. And when following orders from Nazis, what do you expect?

Like I had said, versailles was an impetus, Hitler made them follow him, as a way out of depreavity, and they believed him, followed him, and fought for him.

Just like these sicko clerics, they have a following, who they promise salvation. The people follow them, to the point of suicide, for they truly believe that this PERSON is their salvation.

Brainwashed is perhaps too strong a term, but it conveys the message. If you’re wlling to die for somethig a man says, I say brainwashed. The JApanese were brainwashed to thinking their emperor was a living God. Who would deny HIM?

Hitler promised(and initialliy elivered) salvation to the germans, he was charismatic, just what they WANTED. They became so enthralled with him, they believe everything he said to be true, and followed him to their destruction.

Originally posted by Distiller
Too late!

Iraq isn’t going that bad – overall. But a bodycount of 66 : 12 isn’t good either. Ramadi should be firebombed to the ground. That’s the problem with Americans. Too good hearted. Don’t want to hurt nobody. But them folks in Iraq should be made very clear, that it is either submission or annihilation. But I know only too well, that this administration don’t has the balls to send in a wing of B-52s one of these nights and finish it once and for ever. And the next night Fallujah, and so on. Arabs would understand that kind of language.

Actually, the 12 were lost in a surprise attack on a marine position, by over a hundred fighters. This proves they need to keep their eyes open, and stay vigilant.

In the recent Fellujia raids, when they WENT in to WIPE out the “gad guts” no marines were killed. The Urban fighting is where we “expected” to see themost casulties.
I know, firebombing will work, but that’s hardly something we’d want to explain to the world. It’s like, we tried for a year, we got frustrated, so we just hit Ctrl, Alt, Delete on them…

Originally posted by Flood
Quick – grab the mike before he starts another one…:eek:

Flood.

Too late!

I’m just trying to be a father,
Raise a daughter and a son,
Be a lover to their mother,
Everything to everyone.
Up and at ’em bright and early,
I’m all in my business suit,
Yeah, I’m dressed for success from my head down to my boots,
I don’t do it for money, there’s still bills that I can’t pay,
I don’t do it for the glory, I just do it anyway,
Providing for our future’s my responsibility,
Yeah I’m real good under pressure, being all that I can be,
And I can’t call in sick on Mondays when the weekends been to strong,
I just work straight through the holidays,
And sometimes all night long.
You can bet that I stand ready when the wolf growls at the door,
Hey, I’m solid, hey I’m steady, hey I’m true down to the core,
And I will always do my duty, no matter what the price,
I’ve counted up the cost, I know the sacrafice,
Oh, and I don’t want to die for you,
But if dyin’s asked of me,
I’ll bear that cross with an honor,
‘Cause freedom don’t come free.
I’m an american soldier, an american,
Beside my brothers and my sisters I will proudly take a stand,
When liberty’s in jeopardy I will always do what’s right,
I’m out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight.
American soldier, I’m an American,
An American,
An American Soldier

TOBY KEITH / Shock’N Y’all

😀

Iraq isn’t going that bad – overall. But a bodycount of 66 : 12 isn’t good either. Ramadi should be firebombed to the ground. That’s the problem with Americans. Too good hearted. Don’t want to hurt nobody. But them folks in Iraq should be made very clear, that it is either submission or annihilation. But I know only too well, that this administration don’t has the balls to send in a wing of B-52s one of these nights and finish it once and for ever. And the next night Fallujah, and so on. Arabs would understand that kind of language.

Originally posted by pluto77189
No, that’s what you percieve. Nobody thinks there’s any one solution. However, without education, they’re bound to stagnate, and fall into poverty, and suffering. Education will give the ABILITY to save themselves,a nd better their own lives. With education, they stand a chance.

What caused the Germans to fight so fiercly? Elitisim. They were made to believe they were superior to other people, and were destined to control the world. Just like the Imperial Japanese, they were BETTER than the people they fought.

How did this happen? After WWI, the reparations caused much suffering in Germany, and impoverished, unhappy people, not totally in control of their own life, will seek a scapegoat. Germany blamed the Jews, and the rest of the world, becasue of the treaty of versailles’s reparations. The german people were brainwashed into believing their own superiority. From there,it’s not hard to see why they fought–they were BETTER than their enemies.

Militant islamists believe their culture is superior to western culture. So much so, they believe that western culture is an affront to god, and god wills it’s destruction. While they were educated, the 9-11 terrorists STILL believed what they were doing was good.
Look what the Nazis tried. Is there any doubt that the terrorists are any LESS determined?

Wrong on both points. The fascist superiority idea did not find a big following. Most germans were strongly christian during this time. Many did not konw what was happening to the Jews.
They were also not brainwashed. They had seen demonstration been cut down with force by french troops. They had seen their economy collapse because of the reperations. Their live had become much worse then during the time under the imperator. They wanted a strong leader again and Hitler was offering to fullfill this wish. In the first years of his dictatoship life for the average German imrpoved remarkably. So he fullfilled his first promise. The Versaille treaty was seen as unjust by the majority of the germans so Hitler was able to get support for a revision. With the experience from the post WW1 years every german “knew”, that there would be no peacefull solution. So they joined the war.
Why they kept fighting is that they believed that loosing the war would mean a life worse then during the years after WW1 and nobody wanted that.
Luckily this expectation was not fullfilled and that is why germany is a democracy today. The democratic system proved to be the best solution for the average people. So they supported the system and now the large majority of the people are democrats by heart. And we should not forget that there was a tendency or wish for democracy in Germany since the 18s century. So we can not say that the allies brought the democracy to germany. The seed for a democracy was already there.

But is the seed for democracy already there in Iraq ??

I believe Afghanistan is much more promising in that case. The people there have gone through a muslim dictatorship and the democratic government does seem promising to them. This mission can succeed if the west really helps to improve the ecenomic and security situation for the average people there.

“No, you said “why is everything coming from America”, I was talking about donations, you, seem to have been referring to buisness.”

well, even with donations there’s plenty of stuff coming from europe. so what were u on about?

“The vast majority of Iraqis WANT a democratic state,and WANT to see it through. Only a few thousand people are fighting right now, and they are mostly Sunnis, Shiite followers of that cleric murderer, or foreign terrorists. “

oh, did u do a refferandum to ask them?:rolleyes:

if the vast majority wanted democracy, then why dont u give it to them instead of having a US hand pick pupet gov to rubber stamp everything? :rolleyes:

“Do you know WHY the cleric’s milita started an “uprising?” Because many of his top men were arrested last week. He lost his top people, so he’s in a last ditch effort to get a theocracy. HE had no other choice, either be arrested with his men, and fall into memory while rotting in IRaqi jail, or stage a “rebellion”. Not unexpected after the arrests.”

and why exactly did the US choose to take out his top ppl? could the little fact that he is a well known and widely respectly iraqi figure who supports an iran style islamic republic have anything to do with it?:rolleyes:

last time i check, democrasy is not about first killing off or imprisoning everyone who has a different view point and then asking the ppl left to vote for one candidate. (does the 99.99 ‘approval’ rate saddam got before the US invaded come to mind?)

“I was referring to the South vietnamese peasents, who could care less who ruled them,as long as they could grow rice, raise children, and live on. If they gave a rat’s A$$ what kind of government was in the cities, they sure didn’t show it. It resulted in a lot of americans becoming frustrated with them. They were trying to preserve their freedom, but they were happy with the life they had, they would rather be alive than free. Their choice. Americans saw that as pretty sad, and looked down on it. “

oh they did give a damn about freedom from american occupation and either faught against the americans or supported the VC and NVA that came down from the north. (please dont tell me u honestly believed the CV carried whole months worth of food and ammo on their backs).

americans became frustrated cos the very ppl they were supposed to be ‘protecting’ were shooting them when they turned their backs.

the whole vietnamese ppl choose freedom instead of wealth, americans might have looked down on it or percieved it as ‘pretty sad’, but then who gives a damn?:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by plawolf
[B

so, let me guess, in ur last post u were suggesting that only americans donate stuff are u? if thats what u believe then theres no point is dicussing anything with u. :rolleyes:

No, you said “why is everything coming from America”, I was talking about donations, you, seem to have been referring to buisness.

er……NO. :rolleyes:

The vast majority of Iraqis WANT a democratic state,and WANT to see it through. Only a few thousand people are fighting right now, and they are mostly Sunnis, Shiite followers of that cleric murderer, or foreign terrorists. Do you know WHY the cleric’s milita started an “uprising?” Because many of his top men were arrested last week. He lost his top people, so he’s in a last ditch effort to get a theocracy. HE had no other choice, either be arrested with his men, and fall into memory while rotting in IRaqi jail, or stage a “rebellion”. Not unexpected after the arrests.

The Sunnis are in a similar position to white south Africans when Apartheed was over. They had ALL the power, now, because of numbers, they have very little. The sunnis don’t want that, so they resist. Coupled with the fact that quite a few sunnis were involved with Saddam’s persecution of the shiites, they have reason to fear.

:rolleyes: is that why millions of vietnamese died fighting an enemy that outmatched it in every feild but the willingness to die for what they believed to be worth fighting for?:rolleyes:

I was referring to the South vietnamese peasents, who could care less who ruled them,as long as they could grow rice, raise children, and live on. If they gave a rat’s A$$ what kind of government was in the cities, they sure didn’t show it. It resulted in a lot of americans becoming frustrated with them. They were trying to preserve their freedom, but they were happy with the life they had, they would rather be alive than free. Their choice. Americans saw that as pretty sad, and looked down on it.

The Iraqi people ACTUALLY want the freedom offered them by a democratic government. The average vietnamese wanted to live alone, not caring who was in power.

“I was not talking about buisness, just donations.

And most americans are NOT donating. IF they did, Iraq qould be able to triple it’s GDP by sellingoff surplus donations.

All it takes is a few people to donate a few boxes of pencils and paper to supply an entire school for a year. “

so, let me guess, in ur last post u were suggesting that only americans donate stuff are u? if thats what u believe then theres no point is dicussing anything with u. :rolleyes:

“I wouldn’t say it’s bitten off too much. Everyone fully expected the recent events, the sunnis are afraid they’ll be punished for being saddam’s pets, and the Radical Shiites, having been oppressed for decades, think that an islamic state is best. Both groups are willing to do crazy things–to the point of damaging their cause–to get their point across.”

er……NO. :rolleyes:

the US military, US ppl and the rest of the world expect saddam loyalists and islamic terrirosts to be doing most of the fighting. that was the case for quite a while, but now it seems that huge chunks of the iraqi ppl and iraqi military who previously laid down their arms are also joining in the fight, that was not expect by many, certainly not this late in the occupation.

the world expect the level of violence to be deminishing, not increasing with time. had the US opened up even even 1/3 of the reconstruction contracts to foreign bidders, then the reconstruction would have been much much quicker, generating jobs and wealth, and keeping ppl off the streets.

instead, the US tried to keep all the contracts (ie all the money), but after years of decline and outsourcing, the US manufactoring and construction sectors simply could not meet the massive demand of rebuilding a nation revaged by three major wars, more then a decade of sanctions and sparadic bombing.

also, the fact that the pl doing the reconstruction are americans are not helping the reconstrution effort as events have brutally demonstrated over the weekend.

“With support of most of Iraqis, the Us will see things through.”

with the full support of most of the iraqi ppl then the US will no doubt see things through. however, currently, most iraqis are unfriendly to the americans, some are indifferent, many are against and very few are fully with. and that does not look like changing without major stragegic changes by the US military and cival administration.

“In Vietnam, the people were ok with whatever they had–they didn’t care about being free, only alive. The Iraqis want freedom, and most know how to get it(NOT shiite theocracy, or imperial dictatorship). “

:rolleyes: is that why millions of vietnamese died fighting an enemy that outmatched it in every feild but the willingness to die for what they believed to be worth fighting for?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by seahawk

And that is what I mean, americans always believe that there always is a cure to a problem. But some times there is no simple and quick solution.

No, that’s what you percieve. Nobody thinks there’s any one solution. However, without education, they’re bound to stagnate, and fall into poverty, and suffering. Education will give the ABILITY to save themselves,a nd better their own lives. With education, they stand a chance.

What caused the Germans to fight so fiercly? Elitisim. They were made to believe they were superior to other people, and were destined to control the world. Just like the Imperial Japanese, they were BETTER than the people they fought.

How did this happen? After WWI, the reparations caused much suffering in Germany, and impoverished, unhappy people, not totally in control of their own life, will seek a scapegoat. Germany blamed the Jews, and the rest of the world, becasue of the treaty of versailles’s reparations. The german people were brainwashed into believing their own superiority. From there,it’s not hard to see why they fought–they were BETTER than their enemies.

Militant islamists believe their culture is superior to western culture. So much so, they believe that western culture is an affront to god, and god wills it’s destruction. While they were educated, the 9-11 terrorists STILL believed what they were doing was good.
Look what the Nazis tried. Is there any doubt that the terrorists are any LESS determined?