Bagdad Museum Looted?

“The point is this, i would rather save one innocent life than a ten tousand year old vase…”

Really?

And how many American lives were worth sacrificing for the Declaration of Independance?

How many billion people are there?

How many billion will there be in 10 years time?

If human life is so important why do you support your government bombing all the countries it bombs?

I didn’t realise it was a choice between saving one innocent life or a piece of old pottery… I thought it was a choice between being there for the Iraqis… and protecting the museums and hospitals, or the choice of protecting the oil so it can flow quicker.
The World can offer Iraq enough loans, and the US has enough specialist oil fire teams to get oil flowing within a few months no matter what anyone did to the oil infrastructure.
The delay would merely mean more interest would accrue… but why would the Iraqi people care about that, because the priority of helping them rather than the oil would mean they’d have functional sewerage systems, and electricity and water supplies, Hospitals would be stocked with medicines and be safe, and Iraqs history would be intact and protected… tourism is certainly part of Iraqs future too… and the important artifacts will last longer in display in a museum than the oil will support them…

Re: and….where you get you propaganda?

Vortex.

“Arthur, it is true that some hospitals were looted and it is true that some staff didn’t show up afterwards, but let me ask you this… what happened to all the casualties that according to “some” media claim as US inflicted and over crowding ALL hospitals when looting of hospitals supposedly started? Did those patients just mysteriously all went home? Or, the looters simply took all they can while the patients lay by watching? Or…humm….none of the above?”

As Arthur said much of the scenes of overcrowding were filmed directly after an incident when even tose with the most minor of injuries were seeking assistance. It is to America’s credit that the so called ‘collateral damage’ was less than anticipated. But, if you were a patient in hospital and the hospital was being torn apart around your ears, wouldn’t you have left? Might you not also have expected your liberators who have fought to free you from the Saddam regime to provide you with some protection? Of course the looting happened. The problem was that coalition plans did not take into account the fact that the Iraqi people might not be as welcoming as they had hoped for.

Regards,

kev35

…

according to the SAME media that claimed many civilian casualties are also the ones that emphasized the lootings. Remeber some reporter said they didn’t see ANY shooting from the Palestine hotel? Well, now why was a couple of Fayadeens been cought from the inside? We all know that it’s the media that have more liberals than not….so, these people are so professional heh? No personal biases heh? Just like some people claiming about some airplanes too right? just some thoughts….Remember many of the reporters went in with the intention of showing as much reasons against this war, against this biased backdrop what do you think will come out from them. Of course there are the proAmerican ones, but why take one news and trash other based only on what your original leanings anyways.?

There weren’t all that many people hospitalised, that’s a fact. Anyone who could take care of himself on a certain level, or be helped by his relatives/friends, only went to the hospital to get first aid and such while they mostly stayed at home. For the simple reason that there was no water and minimal supplies in the hospitals anyway. Only the most serious patients were hospitalised. The footage you saw of overcrowded hospitals after civilians were hit were of the first aid departments of hospitals (the ER), but most of those people went home again after they recieved first aid.

Note that there weren’t all that many civilian wounded in this war. Especially not if measured against the size and number of Iraqi hospitals – back in the 1970s Iraqi healthcare was the most extensive in the non-Western world.

and….where you get you propaganda?

Arthur, it is true that some hospitals were looted and it is true that some staff didn’t show up afterwards, but let me ask you this… what happened to all the casualties that according to “some” media claim as US inflicted and over crowding ALL hospitals when looting of hospitals supposedly started? Did those patients just mysteriously all went home? Or, the looters simply took all they can while the patients lay by watching? Or…humm….none of the above? Now, which one is more plausible? You are a good aircraft detective, because you do it hands on….why hands on and not simply relying on others? When you do rely on others what do you need to do?

Bit of a moot point really, since neither the Baghdad Museum nor the hospitals were protected from pillaging. That honour only bestowed the Ministy of Oil.

David.

“Vortex – if we don’t have any heritage we don’t have any sense of where we have come from and indeed how we can learn from it. Should the concentration camps that are intact be bulldozed
and forgoten about ?”

The concentration camps should never be forgotten about or bulldozed. But Vortex has a point. One hospital, and the care that it provides, however rudimentary, is of more value than a concentration camp museum. What good is having a sense of where you come from and magnificent artefacts to display when children are dying on the streets, electricity is available sometimes, the basic infrastructure is destroyed. Ask a mother whose baby has septicaemia whether she wants a thousand year old vase or some penicillin.

“Why should the coalition bother to look for graves of people who have disappeared in Iraq – what to they stand to gain?
Maybe by knowing what happened to them we can put them to rest but also fill in the history of what his regime did.”

Just a shame it’s twelve years too late. I think there’s enough evidence of what was done already. Just a pity the world stood by and let it happen. A cynic might also suggest it’s a way to dissuade people from questioning the whereabouts of the elusive WMD’s?

“History is tangible and only through artifacts in museums can we instill a sense of belonging in people and indeed identity.”

That’s true up to a point. But my identity was established through the people with whom I interacted long before I ever set foot in a museum. People are and always will be more important than artefacts.

Regards,

kev35

Vortex – if we don’t have any heritage we don’t have any sense of where we have come from and indeed how we can learn from it. Should the concentration camps that are intact be bulldozed
and forgoten about ?
Why should the coalition bother to look for graves of people who have disappeared in Iraq – what to they stand to gain?
Maybe by knowing what happened to them we can put them to rest but also fill in the history of what his regime did.
History is tangible and only through artifacts in museums can we instill a sense of belonging in people and indeed identity.

yes, that’s true.

a large amount of the items were shipped off to another site for storage to prevent it from being stolen when the bombing began. Notice that most of the “pieces” in museums such as those in Mosel were replicas. The point is this, i would rather save one innocent life than a ten tousand year old vase…the point is, we are taught to cheerish life over materials, but isn’t a ten thousand year old vase still a vase? Ten thousand years later if humans are still around on Earth, would you like them to save your computer as an artifact than above life? So, don’t give me your hypocritical crap about how selective bombing is useless when things get looted….

David

Actually I happened to see an item on one of the news services which suggested that persons unknown had removed the bulk of the items in the museum before the looting started and presumably before the invasion started. The suggestion was that those responsible had connections to the museum in some offical way. The impression I got was that the bulk of the 1500,000 or so pieces were safe.

Unfortunately I didn’t pay much attention at the time but hopefully we will find out the truth before long. There is such a glut of info out there I lose track.

No… we didn’t imagine the smashed items regardless of how or what really happened. Much of what I have seen about this event smells bad to me.

In any event, I get annoyed that so many who know bugger all about what happened, are on the news blabbing about how terrible it was and who should have anticipated this and that and done this or that. These are the same ‘ types’ who have been wrong in most of their predictions about events in Iraq and have never been near the place. This is not directed at you by any means.

Regards

Sauron

Sauron – when you say people unknown removed items to safe
locations – do you mean they have relocated them to private collectors in the West? Surely the museum director would have had some knowledge of this happening? What about the items
that were visibly smashed on the floor ??
Did it really happen at all or are we just imagining the whole thing??

The Hanging Gardens! God!… did someone gig up and steal the flowers. There was a war going on Garry.

I suppose the experts on this forum, plus those that appear on TV (all of whom are thousands of miles from the action) should have been consulted before hand. If so I am sure every possible event and every possible consequence would have been put in a playbook for the troops. Hindsight is wonderful thing though.

I thought the playing card idea was rather good myself but what do I know.

🙂

Sauron

And all that effort to avoid bombing culturally important sites like the hanging gardens of babylon were wasted if they are not going to go in and protect them from looting. They wasted resources to defend an empty building with lots of paper in it called the ministry of oil. All the paper in that building has very little to do with the future of Iraq… the future of Iraq is safe and sound in the ground.
But they chose paper over protecting Hospitals and cultural things of real value to the whole world.

I cannot understand how past records from the oil ministry is more important than their stated goal of saving the people of Iraq… no, wait, yes, I can… they want to find who Saddam was selling oil to and at what prices… Blackmail, or another smoke screen to cover the fact that what they went in there for was BS.

(WMD and the people my butt)

“Whatever happened, it would appear it was beyond the control of the US military as the museum appears to have been broken into before troops arrived in the area.”

It seems everything was beyond the control of the US troops as it wasn’t even planned for. All they seemed to plan for was capturing a deck of cards, making up stupid names for Heirarchy members and getting to those oil fields and the ministry of oil… and everything else can go hang.

Sounds like the plan of an occupying force to me… 🙁

Garry

You are right about the history but some recents reports suggest that persons unknown removed most of the items before the fighting started and transported them to safe locations. If true, they were not stolen or looted after all (which was the point of my original post). Perhaps the management of the museum who must of known full well from personal experience what the Saddam regime was capable of, took steps to hide most valued items. Time will tell.

Whatever happened, it would appear it was beyond the control of the US military as the museum appears to have been broken into before troops arrived in the area.

Regards

Sauron

“What I don’t understand is people whining about the looting of a museum when hospitals are being stripped of anything down to and including light switches! “

It may sound harsh but some of the objects in the museum in bagdad were 7 thousand years old and were unreplaceable.

They weren’t just important to Babylon and now Iraq, but also to the world.

How hard would it have been to go to the local clerics and ask them to get a dozen armed men and station them at each hospital and important site… they ended up doing that anyway.

Re: haha Arthur….

Vortex,

Bit touchy again aye 😉 ?

Vortex, the Dutch surrendered to the Germans after five pitiful days of resistance on May 15th, 1940. The first proclamation of the German kommandatur (local proclamations had already been made in other areas which were occupied even sooner) was in order to maintain order, stability and civil services.

The prosecution of the Jews didn’t start for another year, which makes it perfectly besides the point. Unless you know something about US plans in Iraq we don’t }> ? (I really really want that devil back!).

Sauron,

The Soviet behaviour of stealing German artefacts is not acceptable, but it was not an issue back then because UNESCO was not yet in function. But i understand you don’t see a problem in the US moving to the same standards as the stalinist Soviet Union lived to? I’m impressed…

Let me remind you again: a country’s standards are as high as a country claims them to be. If the US governments states it represents freedom, democracy and free trade, it better make sure it doesn’t lie too much. When North Korea is presenting itself as the pinnacle of freedom and decency, i’m sure i won’t be leaving them alone either.

As a sidenote, perhaps you can tell me the difference between the Soviet theft of German art (and art stolen by the Germans during the war as well) and Operation Paperclip, in which the US gave German research a new owner?

Sauron – the damage that could be caused to the Bagdad museum was predicted prior to the war . The items stolen were in the most part well know priceless items which are now most probably in the west. This was well organised theft . The inability of the coalition forces to protect the museum will go down in history as a complete and utter tragedy.

Arthur

Interesting how double standards work.

I guess in the case of the USSR and now Russia the lowest standard of behavour is acceptable but for the US and the UK the standard can’t be set high enough.

In any event, given the situation in Iraq and the rather small number of forces available to police the situation, any claim of a violation of any real or imagined convention is a lot of nonsense.

Regards

Sauron

haha Arthur….

they know how to “do” it alright….a bullet in your head will always take care of that. Forgot about the shameful past against the Jews so soon? Hypocrites.

Originally posted by Sauron
Arthur

Is that the same Geneva convention that applies to the middle east treasure plundered by guys like Schliemann and others and then stolen by the Russians during WWII which has never been returned?

As for the duty of an occupant to immediately restore order: yep, that Geneva Convention. The US still knew how to do it in World War 2 (so did the Germans by the way), but i guess that ancient wisdom has been put in the Smithsonian rather than applying it in Iraq. However, this does not apply to the Soviet Union as it did not officially acknowledge the Geneva Convention until after WW2. It’s interesting to see you make this comparison though 😀

However, the protection of cultural treasures and heritage is assured by UNESCO, which is a UN organisation – one of the more effective ones actually. Pre-UN misbehaviour in this respect is not an issue.