Political leaders

RE: Political leaders

I didn´t refer to you with the remark of travelling. It was addressed to Basque nationalists and other shortminded ones. It was a general remark. The key of the problem here, is the EU membership. A country (according to the EU laws) can´t have a colony in other member state. I suppose both sides want to redefine the Gibraltar status. Right now they are having some things which are not permitted under the EU laws. The other references we have been pointing out are too general. To put and end to this, I don´t really want GIB under Spanish rule. I know Franco didn´t treat Gibraltar in a nice way, but it seems to me that being Spanish is not so bad after all, and specially is you are allowed to keep both passports. We do have a huge resentment against the Gibraltarians. They despise us. Spanish citizenship, like others in the world, are not to despise, and these guys are showing huge degrees of racism.

RE: Political leaders

You’re right about travel. It certainly broadened my mind, and I hope it will become broader still!

But I think there is a big difference between Gib and say, Chechnya. Gib is ALREADY separate from Spain and there is no reason (other than Spanish feelings) to re-unite. And if you beleive in an EU-super state (which I don’t) then re-unification would be ultimately pointless anyway.

Also, I think a lot of the Spanish response is just petty protectionism. Things like closing airspace to Gibraltar-bound aircraft, and being very awkward about letting people drive in to Gib.

These things only cause further resentment from Gibraltar and they widen the divide.

RE: Political leaders

Hundred per cent agree Mongu. Case by case response. I suppose the places where the development of your traditions is blocked by the ruling power (Bosnia, Kosovo, Timor), independence could be a solution. But in places in our rich bubble of Europe like the Basque country, Scotland or Corsica; concept of in full independecne is quite absurd and a senseless source of conflict. In the case of the Basque country, full autonomy, having the widest degree of self goverment, huge privileges, it´s amazing that some people prefers confrontation and full independence. Nationalist is a contiuous problem. I have always told that the best healing for nationalism or extreme pratriotism, which may be the same, is travelling. Enlarges one´s mind.

RE: Political leaders

Leaving away political, economical, and technical matters.You´ve to admit that it´s not the same, changing from the UK (or a british colony as I see the rock) to Spain won´t suppose a big change for gibraltarians, the speak the same language and they will maintain the autonomy they´ve today (so economical godness will continue to be their business).
If you see Ceuta and Melilla, if we returned those 2 cities (we can´t because the kingdom from whom we get them no longer exists) the will be kicked out of the EU to Morocco, a third world country. I´ve been living in London for 2 months and I can assure you that the difference between living in Spain and in the UK has nathing to do with the difference between Morocco and Spain.

RE: Political leaders

There is no solution, Keltic.

These things need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Even then, mistakes happen and cotroversies happen. How about Chechnya, or South Ossetia?

Perhaps countries have to try harder at being inclusive. Certainly, if a region is treated badly then its arguments for independence carry extra weight. The UK govermment does not treat Gib very well, because it finds it embarassing.

RE: Political leaders

Hi Mongu; We don´t necessary have to agree to keep a polite debate.
You are right in the point that people wishes are important. In this case, and to solve Gib problem, the oppinion of the people is important but I am not sure if more than the whishes of two countries to find a solution. The real problem is that they are thinking in independece. I don´t think the UK accepts that. And this brings other problem. Are all people, regions, cities, lands….able to decide that they want to be independent?. In all circunstances?. If the Isle of Wight wants independence?, if the city of Strassbourg wants to go back to germany?. Are the frontiers more important than human desires?. Hard question. I haven´t still found a solution.

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It was, before 1919. After WWII, it became official property of the Belgian state, which did not however prevent us from exploiting the country and enslavering the local population.

RE: Political leaders

I don’t think we’ll agree on the Gib issue Keltic! Suffice it to say that in a democracy, you cannot illegitimise the popular decision just because you don’t like the people’s motives.

Well, to the defence of Europe!!

Point 1:
I agree that the primary European motive is trade, over human rights. I personally have no moral issue with this. But in the end, trade is the US motivation too.

Don’t try to disguise that with flowery talk about the president being legally obliged to protect Taiwan at the expense of trade. You refer the losses on Boeing orders, either realised or unrealised, I’m not sure.

But the real trade mission is not Boeings, nor Buicks. It is Coca Cola and all the smaller trappings of US commerce.

Point 2:
If the US considers that both sides in the Isro-Palestinian conflict are to blame, you are begging a very big question. Why do you throw your weight behind only one side??

Besides, as my earlier posts indicated, both sides are guilty. I do support the Palestinians, but I fully acknowledge that they are not
knights in shining armour. Maybe my motives here are negative; support for the underdog perhaps.

Point 3:
Please learn to accept criticism. The US aint perfect, you know.

RE: Political leaders

They have voted to be British of course guys called Martinez,Gomez and so on, having Spanish traditions and living essentially in the Algeciras area. The reason is quite obvious. Spain is not so rich. Gibraltar is not only a tax haven but what is more important centre of ilegal smuggling and international mafia and of course this leaves lots of income. On the other had, you mention Ceuta and Melilla. Nothing to do with it and no comparision. Ceuta and Melilla, like Majorca or Cannary Islands belonged to Spain for hundred of years before Morocco existed. With this point, countries always thinks with the heart and flag, so it´s difficult to get a compromise. I think is something which is poisoning the UK-Spanish realations for a long time and needs to be fixed.

RE: Political leaders

Hong Kong was a British colony and it was promised to be returned after the “lease” ends…so was Macao. Don’t apply that to Taiwan. HK and Macao has no military, no president, no real equal rights between the rich and the poor(very very bad discrimination against the poor), only the rich gets the British and Portuguese passports so they can leave if they want to. Taiwan is officially Republic of China, which was born long before PRC, what’s your take on that? Again, no one has ever answer to me that ROC didn’t sign any formal/informal surrender documents, yet what makes it suddenly a “non-nation”? Because the world, and especially the western Europeans started to assert that in the 1960s, declared defeat for them. If this is a small group like some rebel Chechens, then maybe it’s understandable, but this is a place with over 20 million people, nobody except them have the right to decide their fate, yet it seems like so by the Europeans in order to curry favor toward the PRC to get a share of the huge potential market. When ever PRC is unhappy with the Europeans, airbuses gets cancelled, special permits for the Europeans gets cancelled, etc, and that instantly brings an abrubt turn of Euro-Chinese policy. That’s 100% prove that Europeans only care about money, what “human rights”? US policy toward Taiwan on ALL official statement is the “peaceful reunion of Taiwan and China” (Not Taiwan “to” China, but “and”, meaning no implications that the democratic government is subjugated to the PRC’s communistic system), again the China in reference is not by default set to PRC, but rather a greater “China”. US policy on Taiwan/China is to appease when required (or course we have our own “interests”) but straighten out your back bone (when being asked of very very unreasonable things, which is quite often) when required also. That’s why if PRC threatens a Boeing contract, well, Boeing might have to swallow that if it was determined to be unreasonable, but in European’s case, it’s 100% appeasement because you want the “potential” money that comes with it. Remember it was under Clinton’s administration that send two CVBGs to that region when SRBMs are being used to terrorize Taiwanese. Clinton is not a China lover (to shatter some’s false memory here) and would still protect Taiwan(by law he’s required to), but the only problem is that many American leaders thinks his appeasement is too much and a rather weak backbone (at least he has one..unlike some European leaders), which ironically will worsen the situation there, as demonstrated certain events during that period of time.
As to Americans neglecting the Palestinian sufferings, what the hell are you talking about? Here you are accusing us being near “stupid” in believing the world being only black and white and no shades, yet many of your opinions seems to voice such when it comes to the Palestinians and the Isrealies, where the Israelis is the bad guys and only the Palestinians are suffering. No, both are suffering and it’s the stupidity of both leaders to cause all this sufferings. But, who gets the blame? the US. What ever happened to the fact that the Isrealis simply told the European deligation to “GO HOME”, which they did. Europe is the world’s largest trading bloc with Israel, if you feel so deeply about the plight of the Palistenians, why didn’t you use that to your advantage, no it’s MONEY again. Europeans only agree on one thing during special sessions, and that’s to agree that the US isn’t doing enough…talk about such lame excuse for one’s own lack of will and leadership. The Bush administration have openly favor the creation of a Palestinian state, which no president before him openly favor that, yet here you are out of your own design to feel superior, constantly laugh at everything he’s trying to do there. If you are impartial, you would applause him for such a courageous stand, because the Israeli lobby in Washington is very very powerful. Like i’ve always said, Bush may not be the brightest(maybe not bright at all… 😉 ), but respect him for being the President of the United States, nothing else. Besides, he have the brightest working for him. Once you show lack of respect, it clouds all your judgments, my Jedis…

RE: Political leaders

The UK may have violated the terms of the agreeement, but the status of the occupation has since moved on.

The ethnic make up of Gibraltans is not so Spanish; after the last referendum (a few years ago), an overhelming majority of Gibraltans (somewhere over 90%) voted to remain under British protection rather than be absorbed by Spain.

When Gib was ceded, it was nothing. Literally, it was a rock with very few inhabitants. Over the centuries it has grown into a thriving town and indeed into more or less a part of Britian. It may techincally be a colony, but most Gibraltans I know (only 2, admittedly) are very British. Not Spanish at all.

And…

What about the Spanish colonies in North Africa? How can Spain want Gib back when the Moroccans have no chance of reclaiming their own coastline?

Regarding the tax haven bit: I live and work in another “tax haven”, the Isle of Man. Let me tell you that regulation and anti money-laundering controls both in the IOM and Gib are many times stronger and more effective than either the UK or Spain. In this day and age, Gibraltar is not particularly corrupt. It does offer advantageous tax rates; but it is the privilege of every fiscally independent jurisdiction to set its own tax policies without interference. Every country competes on tax with other countries; It’s just that when the country in question is small, we call it a tax haven. Quite unfair, really.

RE: Political leaders

Mongu;
Just a few words about Gibraltar. Gibraltat is not a part of the UK but a colony. I don´t really care who should have Gibraltar, because we are allies and members of the same organizations and nothing will split this relatioship. Historically Gibraltar was given to Spain, under the Utrecht Treaty and under certain conditions in 1713. The treaty itself points that whenever the treaty be violated, the colony should be given back. Originally, only the castle was given. With the past of time, all adjent neutral areas (like the airport, the other parts of the islands…and so on) were seized ilegally. On the other hand, it doesn´t mention anything about air or water jurisdiction and what´s more important points that the fraud use of the rock for smuggling will be another reason. Since then Gibraltar, where its citizens are ethnically Spanish, speak Spanish with broad Andalucian accent and have Spanish tradition, because the use facilities and services in Spain. So they don´t want to be Spanish because they would miss privilege. On the other way, the tax haven status, make them a dark place for Mafia and other stuff which are supported by the rock authorities to keep this lucrative business. So the UN and the EU have urged to get an agreement. Just to remind that all internationally organizations has repeated that Gibraltar is a part of Spain. What it should be achieved is a shared soveranity and end this silly conflict. The opinion of Gibratarians is important but not a reason to block things, as it wasn´t in the case of the people of Hong Kong who wasn´t asked for.
Anyone annoyed with my views…..:-)

RE: Political leaders

Wasn’t Zaire/DR Congo the personal thiefdom of King Leopold, rather than Belgium?

RE: Political leaders

Well, you’re right. The way Belgium left the Congo was disorderly, leaving behind a civil war, no infrastructure (rebel forces burned down everything). And ofcourse Belgium (together with the CIA) still did some nasty jobs after the independence of Congo like killing Lumumba, and also giving info to the CIA about Che Guevare (who was in Congo at that time).

RE: Political leaders

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-06-02 AT 06:47 PM (GMT)]The US has more of a concern in foreign oil than European countries doesn’t it? It uses more.

Hmm…Africa.

I can only speak about the British here, because I know it wasn’t always the same with other European powers.

But, the African empire was basically well run and the withdrawal was orderly. I happen to have a personal connection with Zambia. In colonial days (as Northern Rhodesia) it was a different place. Upon independence, the country:-

1. Had virtually no external debt

2. Had a copper mining industry which was one of the best in the world – modern and very efficient (ZCCM).

3. Had reasonable infrastructure. Roads which were in good repair etc.

4. Had a very good legal system modelled on the British version.

5. Upon independence, the trappings of democracy were introduced.

So, what went wrong?

In Zambia’s case, one man wrecked the country – Kenneth Kaunda. Similar examples abound in most of the African ex-colonies. The only one to make a success of independence has been Botswana and, maybe, Ghana.

So, my point is that the screwing up was done by Africans, not by us. After all, when we colonised these places, most natives walked around in loin cloths!

RE: Political leaders

Mongu

I wouldn’t for a minute suggest you are personally anti-semetic because both Arabs and Jews are semetic peoples as you well know.

As far as Africa goes this is another area of the world where if the Americans were to step in to try to help resolve problems it would be because others (Europeans mostly) screwed thing up and then left. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. On the oil issue, I imagine that European companies (Shell comes to mind) are the principle ones involved there and that the bulk of the production goes to other than American destinations.

It isn’t just the US that has a stake in foreign oil.

Regards

RE: Political leaders

Sauron,

Gibraltar is NOT part of Spain. Just like Alaska is not part of Canada. More realistically, it is not part of Russia (Russia sold Alaska; Spain gifted in perpetuity Gibraltar).

RE: Political leaders

Keltic

I just occured to me that a region of Spain is in the hands of a foreign power, the British! And that the British army invaded another part of Spain just a few weeks ago but were repelled by a lone Spanish policeman. Maybe the the Royals are working for the CIA.:-)

Regards

RE: Political leaders

Sauron,

Okay, maybe I am a little bit anti-Israeli. Please do not confuse this with anti-semitism however.

I do not understand your assertion that the US is not anti-Palestinian. The constant references to Palestinian “terrorists” seems to underline the point that most Americans have forgotten the historical context of the issues at hand.

You say that without US support, Israel would/might have fallen. You are probably right; but I wouldn’t be too bothered, personally. Arab, Jew – they’re both the same to me. Both committ atrocities. Neither has a special claim.

A sore point with you seems to be that most Arab countries are undemocratic. Worse, they are monarchies.

Why are you so bothered? I agree that these countries ought to change in order to have a more prosperous future and to reduce the amount of fundamentalism. But surely that is an issue for the people of those countries, not America?

You don’t appear to be so concerned about democracy in other parts of the world (eg. Africa) because the oil element seems to double or even triple your sense of poignancy with regard to the Middle East.

RE: Political leaders

Keltic

I take your point and can only add that because the civil-war in China was part of the larger struggle between two politial views it was only reasonable that the western powers (not just the US) would oppose the PRC. Given the track records of each I would say that the Taiwan folks got the better of the deal. Now things are changing and as others here have pointed out the US probably did more than you could have reasonably expected in the beginning, in maintaining a balance between the two.

Regards