Alright Dave?

Of course areas where immigration has failed exist and I pointed out several posts ago that the Labour policy of multiculturalism has been a total failure. That doesn’t make immigration in itself a bad thing but it does emphasise our incompetence in dealing with it.

My view is far from blinkered neither is it narrow minded and dismissive of immigration per se which is the view of a number of our members as well as the wider population. Fed by a xenophobic tabloid press it feeds on peoples’ fears and so the perception diverges from the reality.

I understand the emotional aspects. The sad thing is all of these “anecdotes” amount to pub talk or at best third hand testimony.

How many of you guys have experienced misery, hardship or deprivation of services? You, not a chum or distant family member, you?

If you have firstly, unless through your own doing, my commiserations, secondly can you truly tie that unfortunate episode to the 0.47% yearly increase in population?

If you can lets have the data.

Snafu – it is ok quoting 0.47 yearly increase but this has been going on since the late 40’s early 50’s – it is relentless – families join families – ethnic birth rates would be interesting reading ; )
It is also clear (even from this thread) that a large proportion of british taxpayers have severe disquiet about how we lost control of immigration – it should be tightly controlled but certain guvmints have actually relaxed any control at various stages !
My worries are medium to long term – not just one years figures plucked out of official records (which will be incorrect anyway)!
Life must be great in Luxembourg (if that is your true location) – but you really would not want to visit certain city areas here LOL

How exactly does the reality differ from the perception?

Why are there warning signs of undercover police operating on the London underground in Romanian? Why do areas like Chapeltown in Leeds, Tower Hamlets etc resemble Kabul? Or go to Boston highstreet and not hear a single word of English being spoken? Have you been to a Police station, Hospital etc recently? How much are we spending on translation services?

Some immigration has been a huge success, and the immigrants have integrated well. But the reality is that in many areas, it has been a total failure. Instead of integrating, separate communities have formed. And the governments have encouraged this failure by allowing people to move here without even a basic grasp of English, and with no plan on making these new arrivals part of a community.

I agree, there is a lot of hysteria around this subject, from both sides. To have the blinkered view that all immigration is good is just as bad as thinking it is all bad.

Unworthy, perhaps John, but a way of trying to make the point.

My own feeling is that there is a gulf of understanding between the reality of immigration and the perception of immigration. With perception comes fear in tandem with xenophobia.

Well I do live here and have lived here all my life and I agree with Snafu’s general point. What you have described is true and we see it in all our towns and cities but if you are seriously blaming it on immigrants then I think you have stepped beyond the bounds of reality. The figures speak for themselves and the actual numbers are trivial.

The fact that our towns and cities cannot cope with the in flux of people and their cars is a completely separate problem, which has to be addressed. In any case one of the key factors in population growth putting stresses on all local services is the birth/death ratio. Perhaps you need to consider compulsory sterilisation and euthanasia!!

Charlie,

That last comment is unworthy of you. Let’s avoid the perjorative.

“the figures speak for themselves”. Unfortunately they don’t. Ed the Red’s government said repeatedly that they did not know how many had come to this country. They admitted more than once that no one was counting. No one was counting because they did not want to count. The suspicion was and remains, that they were bent on altering the ethnic composition of Britain and by issuing no questions National Insurance numbers thereby pulling the recipients into the embrace of welfare state payments, they would ultimately create that socialist Shangri La; a client state.

Beermat,

The ‘drive’ is pretty obviously the furtherence of socialism. Isn’t that why we have political parties? They all pursue their particular ideology. The Tories would require us all to be free marketeer capitalists; the socialists want to control everything including the means of production, distribution, prices and wages. Y’know! To each according to his needs. Nothing changes whether capitalist or socialist

Your penultimate paragraph suggests that you are something of an idealist – more power to your elbow. The teaching staff that I came across in my mercifully short association with State further education were intent on keeping their noses clean and serving their time towards retirement and their pension. I worked with staff who were, for whatever reasons, disenchanted with their work, did not properly understand what they were supposed to be teaching and how they were supposed to teach it. I can’t write it any other way; they were a pretty incompetant bunch.

This will make you choke on your ‘wheaty bangs’ they – the staff – were supposed to be teaching new teachers for an award of a B.Ed or a postgraduate Certificate of Education. You ask if I believe that there was some kind of conspiracy going on ? No. Of course not. But, I did not meet anyone whose conversation did not reveal them as left wing. Sorry. That’s the way it was.

As I have already explained, I have no issue with people coming here from other countries. I am not racist. I clearly explained that it is an issue of numbers, which I fully acknowledge is not the fault of immigrants. We are already overcrowded, and we need the ability to control immigration at sustainable levels. We can not stop people from having children, so controlling the influx of foreign nationals is the only way to achieve this.

I’ll reiterate, it is not the fault of immigrants. It is the fault of the EU, and the fault of successive governments for allowing this unplanned, unmonitored and uncontrolled sham to go on for far too long. There is also the separate issue of integration, which has worked well in some areas and utterly failed in others, but that is a different subject for another thread.

Well I do live here and have lived here all my life and I agree with Snafu’s general point. What you have described is true and we see it in all our towns and cities but if you are seriously blaming it on immigrants then I think you have stepped beyond the bounds of reality. The figures speak for themselves and the actual numbers are trivial.

The fact that our towns and cities cannot cope with the in flux of people and their cars is a completely separate problem, which has to be addressed. In any case one of the key factors in population growth putting stresses on all local services is the birth/death ratio. Perhaps you need to consider compulsory sterilisation and euthanasia!!

You want to try spending some time here if you think these points are trivial, traffic problems here are terrible now. It took me 3 hours to drive through London the other week. 20 miles. It then took me 3 hours to drive the further 200 miles home! Even in a small city like York, the dual carriageway/ring road traffic gets so bad that it can regularly take over an hour to travel 2 miles.

You obviously care nothing for the environment, or the UK, so your opinion is invalid.

I understand the emotional aspects. The sad thing is all of these “anecdotes” amount to pub talk or at best third hand testimony.

How many of you guys have experienced misery, hardship or deprivation of services? You, not a chum or distant family member, you?

If you have firstly, unless through your own doing, my commiserations, secondly can you truly tie that unfortunate episode to the 0.47% yearly increase in population?

If you can lets have the data.

Beermat,

It is an intentional drive to impose a leftist influence in news and current affairs and in some comedy programs. The BBC have become very successful left wing propagandists. I have heard thru’ contacts that they favour left wing writers of dramas. Do you remember the recent furore over the content of Midsomer Murders ? Pathetic !

Yes, but WHY the ‘drive’? Do you believe there is some kind of conspiracy going on? I have had dealings with the BBC, and everyone in reality seemed much too busy making TV to think about how to make people socialist!

..also, which comedy programs? Really?

Unless an actual motive can be found sufficient to so materially affect the output of such an institution in the name of an ‘ism’ I feel it may be closer to the truth that:

Writing tends to attract people who value freedom of thought
Journalism (when working for a public body not an autocrat) tends to attract people who want know what is going on
Teaching tends to attract people who care about the future
Further Education tends to attract people who both care about the future and value knowledge

The opposites are blinkered thought, ignorance, short-termism and philistinism. None of which are traditional values of the British Right, and I am not claiming that they are. However, those ARE the values of those who close libraries, Sure Start centres, Citizens Advice etc. If opposing that mindset, and supporting the former set of values makes one ‘socialist’ to the neo-liberal ‘conservative’ mind, then so be it.

Beermat,

It is an intentional drive to impose a leftist influence in news and current affairs and in some comedy programs. The BBC have become very successful left wing propagandists. I have heard thru’ contacts that they favour left wing writers of dramas. Do you remember the recent furore over the content of Midsomer Murders ? Pathetic !

Yes, but WHY the ‘drive’? Do you believe there is some kind of conspiracy going on? I have had dealings with the BBC, and everyone in reality seemed much to busy making TV to think about how to make people socialist!

..also, which comedy programs? Really?

Unless an actual motive can be found sufficient to so materially affect the output of such an institution in the name of an ‘ism’ I feel it may be closer to the truth that:

Writing tends to attract people who value freedom of thought
Journalism (when working for a public body not an autocrat) tends to attract people who want know what is going on
Teaching tends to attract people who care about the future
Further Education tends to attract people who both care about the future and value knowledge

The opposites are blinkered thought, ignorance, short-termism and philistinism. None of which are traditional values of the British Right, and I am not claiming that they are. However, those ARE the values of those who close libraries, Sure Start centres, Citizens Advice etc. If opposing that mindset, and supporting the former set of values makes one ‘socialist’ to the neo-liberal ‘conservative’ mind, then so be it.

Well yea whatever, if it is technical definitions you are worried about you win…

You haven’t addressed the point about being able to demonstrate that said immigration actually has a negative impact, which I would contend is rather more important than technical points scoring with regard to the meaning of English.

No proof no point.

Immigration in of itself has mixed results. The issue is the size of the population of the UK, and the sustainability of continuing to increase the size of the population in line with current trends. Public services already severely overstretched, overcrowded roads (dangerously so in some cases) etc etc.

We cannot cope, and while we are enjoying a much better financial recovery than any other EU member, we will continue to attract a mass of unskilled Labor, who pay little in tax and use our public services, while the number of unemployed in Britain is FAR too high.

I am all for redeveloping urban and industrial areas to make up the housing shortage, but I would rather halt all immigration than build even a single additional house on Britains green belt.

One day, when this TINY Island sinks under the weight of overpopulation, folks will wonder why we let so many in.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

I saw it with my own eyes again during the election coverage – the beeb were really pushing millipede and stirgeon – and who could have missed the RED settees LOL.

Whereas I and others saw the BBC following the Tory news agenda by focussing so often the supposed ‘threat’ of a Labour/SNP coalition, even though Labour denied it would go along with a formal or informal arrangement ad infinitum. It just goes to show the perspective of the viewer colours their perception of the same events. If one believes there is a bias, one will see it even when there is scant actual evidence.

Education, judged by my admittedly personal sample was on the socialist shopping list

your institution may have been like that, although I have no idea when or where you taught, but all I can say is that is not my experience in over 30 years teaching in secondary and further education establishments in a number of different parts of the country.

Have just come back to this thread.. and I have a question.

Why WOULD the BBC have a left-wing bias? Serious question. Over the decades the right have thrown this at the beeb every time they highlight something nasty in the Tory wood-shed, but nobody has ever explained any motive as to why such an institution would be ‘institutionally socialist’, to coin a phrase. Anyone? John?

I do not know why they should Beermat but there are segments of certain professions who are left wing (as John posted previously)
I saw it with my own eyes again during the election coverage – the beeb were really pushing millipede and stirgeon – and who could have missed the RED settees LOL.
Labour really have to field an electable leader – the only one in recent times was teflon tony – he fooled a lot of people for quite a while ; )

Thanks Paul
There is no end to it Paul – because there is no plan !!
In my lifetime successive governments have ignored the wishes of its taxpayers on many issues – but this is by far the worst issue with the greatest long term impact for a small country like britain !
Of course it became un PC to even mention it many years ago and any voices who have questioned immigration policies have immediately had the race card thrown at them !

bazy, I agree with your post in its entirety. The sad thing is I can see no end to it!

We are an overcrowded little island – our health system is already overstretched…as Edgar has already posted – we are not building enough houses.
Successive guvmints have ignored all the disquiet/warnings from ordinary folk (as usual LOL) – there are enough problems here without any extras and also – where does it all end ? – we cannot simply keep on accepting large numbers of ‘refugees’ – we simply do not have the space or infrastructure.
I will not even go into relative birth rates of different ethnic groups ; )
One has to have strict control over numbers and quality/qualifications of prospective immigrants !
You can quote as many statistics as you like snafu but I am a boringly practical guy – It is no use trying to paint me as a right winger – I have no party allegiances or dogmas !!

Have just come back to this thread.. and I have a question.

Why WOULD the BBC have a left-wing bias? Serious question. Over the decades the right have thrown this at the beeb every time they highlight something nasty in the Tory wood-shed, but nobody has ever explained any motive as to why such an institution would be ‘institutionally socialist’, to coin a phrase. Anyone? John?

Beermat,

I’ve asked myself this question many times and still unable to come up with a clearer answer than the following. Perhaps I can answer it obliquely from the perspective of adult education as opposed to compulsory (child) education.

I came into adult education as a teacher rather late in life. I was completely unprepared for just how left wing the educational establishment was or, that part with which I became familiar. I was shocked. Left wing politics predominated.

It seems to me that the political left in this country from the late 1960s made very determined efforts to control those parts of society that were thought necessary to the advancement of socialism. These included industry; the production of iron and steel; vehicle manufacturing and energy or power generation. Education, judged by my admittedly personal sample was on the socialist shopping list as was the BBC judged by some of the content of its ‘flagship’ programs. It was revealed sometime last week that an ‘escapee’ from Ed the Red’s government opposition had found a comfortable bed tucked up with the BBC. I can’t remember his name.

So, there, is my explanation for the more than apparent left slant of the BBC. It is an intentional drive to impose a leftist influence in news and current affairs and in some comedy programs. The BBC have become very successful left wing propagandists. I have heard thru’ contacts that they favour left wing writers of dramas. Do you remember the recent furore over the content of Midsomer Murders ? Pathetic !