American Invation and Agression

RE: Did US Congress pass a law

I used to split time between the facility where Rockwell (now Boeing) was performing B-1 upgrades and the test range at Edwards where they were testing GAM and later JDAM. It’s a pretty good looking airplane up close (not tattered and frayed like many USN and USAF airplanes). It’s awesome to stand under one when it passes overhead at 300 feet and 450 kts too. Too bad they have such crappy engines.

RE: Did US Congress pass a law

The guy on the airshow said the B-1 came from Portugal, so it first had to go to Belgium before it could reach Holland.

Anyway, and awesome machine!!!!!!!!!!! 😀

Does anyone know where I can spot a B-52 in Europe?

RE: Did US Congress pass a law

It passed over Gilze Rijen first, and then went on to Koksijde.

RE: Did US Congress pass a law

Well I saw a B-1B over Koksijde during the weekend 😀

RE: American Invation and Agression

Yeah dutch Marines are very well trained, but still no match for the USMC. The US will outnumber them 😀

RE: Did US Congress pass a law??

I think it started today with one B-1B making to passes over Gilze Rijen AFB.

Phylosophical and personal thoughts about this top

They say that love and hatred go hand in hand, together.
I think our american friends shouldn’t bother about “same, ol’ anti-U.S. crap”.

Let me explain: If you hate, even argue against, you spend time thinking about. It’s so important to

you, that becomes part of your live. It matters to you.

Assuming that we’re all guys, everyone of us has already had one or more of “that” girl, who did not

correspond to our high expectations. We spent sleepless nights thinking about how we came to ‘hate’

her. About what she’s said or done.

The worst thing that could happen to the U.S, IMHO, would be the world turning our eyes and minds

off them. Kind of “I don’t give a rat’s ass to what the United States of America says or does”.

Indifference: The opposite of love. They could not live with that.

Cheers,

Walter.

“Love for thy love, and hand for hand I give”
Henry VI, Act iii, Sc.1

“What I needed most was to love and to be loved, eager to be caught. Happily I wrapped those painful bonds around me; and sure enough, I would be lashed with the red-hot pokers or jealousy, by suspicions and fear, by burst of anger and quarrels.”

~ St. Augustine ~

RE: Arthur’s fine

Man maybe a chat secion would be good for you ;-).

regards,

jw

RE: Arthur’s fine

Relax, I was just joking. It’s about the same here in The Netherlands though.

RE: American Invation and Agression

Today, July first, the Criminal Court is in session.

regards,

jw

RE: Arthur’s fine

“Maybe NZ isn’t so perfect after all . “

🙂
I never said it was… we have crime… our hospitals are underfunded, as are our schools, and our jails are full too… of course the politicians sneak their own pay rises of 10-15% at very late sittings of parliment and then they say to our teachers that a 3% increase over 3 years is too much…
I get the Australian news, the British news and the American news and most of what happens in those countries happens here too though the numbers are smaller…

RE: Arthur’s fine

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-06-02 AT 10:25 AM (GMT)]The last time I had a chat to Helen about the foreign policy for NZ she said, “Who the hell are you, how did you get in here… SECURITY arrest this man!”

We get consulted once every 3-4 years… it is called election time (which we are going through at the moment).
That is what democracy means.

Maybe NZ isn’t so perfect after all }>. At least here in The Netherlands one can go to The Hague and talk to politicians. I guess Israel is a bit different, but that’s logical.

RE: Arthur’s fine

You make some good points… but:

“And lastly, it’s their leaders who call the shots, not the people. They’re not really a democracy, you know.”

The last time I had a chat to Helen about the foreign policy for NZ she said, “Who the hell are you, how did you get in here… SECURITY arrest this man!”

We get consulted once every 3-4 years… it is called election time (which we are going through at the moment).
That is what democracy means.

RE: Did US Congress pass a law??

Dutchy, Geforce, anyone,

Any actual details on the US invasion of International Criminal Court?

Regards

RE: Arthur’s fine

What I mean is that SH will not manually fire the weapon himself.
He must have some trusted group to look after it for him.
Amongst this trusted group it is likely that many people would be required for a launch simply because any one of them could be corrupted either from the US or SH local enemies/rivals.

Well, considering that this corrupted group will certainly come from the same minority clan as Saddam, it get’s all the more spooky. As said, in the event of a coup they will all go down. Most likely Saddam, or anyone in his group will think: ‘well, if I can’t have Iraq, the nobody can. And whle we’re at it, why not destroy those pesky Jews?’ That is what I’m afraid of. Not to forget Saddam himself ordering the use of nukes. And then of course, he’ll also blackmail many of his neighbours once he has the bomb.

The declared goal of their leaders… maybe enough would like some peace and freedom of movement to make it work… or am I being too idealistic to assume they are human too…

Maybe you should check out one opinion poll or two. Over 50% wants Israel destroyed, support for the suicide bombings is 80%. Mothers encourage their children to become suicide bombers. And lastly, it’s their leaders who call the shots, not the people. They’re not really a democracy, you know.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Arthur’s fine

“A safety mechanism means that more people can decide, and have to agree, that the bomb should be used. I don’t see Saddam capable of giving away somne authority.”

What I mean is that SH will not manually fire the weapon himself.
He must have some trusted group to look after it for him.
Amongst this trusted group it is likely that many people would be required for a launch simply because any one of them could be corrupted either from the US or SH local enemies/rivals.

In much the same way in the Soviet Union the KGB had control of nuclear warheads while the Armed forces had control of the delivery systems (strategic rocket forces for ICBMs, the various airforces for tactical and long range nuclear strike capability). This broke up power so that the armed forces and the KGB never had too much on their own. (Of course in the case of the warheads of the strategic the KGB had the arming codes rather than the actual warheads which were of course fitted to the ICBMs ready for launch.)

“They will, that is their declared goal.”

The declared goal of their leaders… maybe enough would like some peace and freedom of movement to make it work… or am I being too idealistic to assume they are human too… 🙂

RE: Arthur’s fine

This is quite true, but any coup would probably take into account any nuclear weapons… especially if planned in Washington. Lets face it in a coup type situation you describe the Iraqi people have as much to fear from SH as Israel do.
I would suggest there would be much more complicated safety mechanisms in place in Iraq than in the US or Russia.

I don’t see any reason to see why this owuld be the case. A safety mechanism means that more people can decide, and have to agree, that the bomb should be used. I don’t see Saddam capable of giving away somne authority.

What I mean is that the Egyptian forces were “destroyed” as an enemy though negotiation and agreements. The fact that Israel uses military force more often than diplomacy and concessions can be a weakness rather than a strength. (Of course I recognise that often military force was the only option but it has often been so successful that diplomatic options have not been properly explored… things like a single state for Palestinains and Jews… a joint partnership that you say cannot work because the palestinains would not or could not let it… they will take control and ruin it and the Jews will have Palestinian masters…)

They will, that is their declared goal.

RE: Arthur’s fine

“But what if some coup starts in Iraq? He’ll then go down anyway, and so does his entore regime. Certainly, he wouldn’t mind taking some people he profoundly hates with him. And what makes you think the Arab states will put the same kind of safety mechanisms in place as did the Soviets and the US?”

This is quite true, but any coup would probably take into account any nuclear weapons… especially if planned in Washington. Lets face it in a coup type situation you describe the Iraqi people have as much to fear from SH as Israel do.
I would suggest there would be much more complicated safety mechanisms in place in Iraq than in the US or Russia. The coup could start simply because a rival faction takes control of the nuclear device and/or elements of the army.

##########
“Sure, because Israel cannot destroy Arab states with it’s conventional army. It can hold off and defend from Arab attacks with the goal to destroy Israel.”

Yet you managed to come to an agreement with Egypt… go figure.

Huh??? I’m not sure whay you mean by this.
##########

What I mean is that the Egyptian forces were “destroyed” as an enemy though negotiation and agreements. The fact that Israel uses military force more often than diplomacy and concessions can be a weakness rather than a strength. (Of course I recognise that often military force was the only option but it has often been so successful that diplomatic options have not been properly explored… things like a single state for Palestinains and Jews… a joint partnership that you say cannot work because the palestinains would not or could not let it… they will take control and ruin it and the Jews will have Palestinian masters…)

“This I can accept. Though I’d say that probably no leader in Iraq or Iran ever heard about NZ… “

Actually they buy a lot of our lamb in Iran, but they probably couldn’t find us on a map… 🙂

(That is OK though… that is what maps and indexes are for… 🙂 )

RE: Arthur’s fine

“Iranian religious leader Khamenei recently said he is prepared to use nuclear weapons to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, and that he knows there is a heavy price to pay, but that it is worth it.”

He has probably said many things in the past that many leaders both religious and political have said. I would suggest that was for local consumption and to create caution in the eyes of those in power in Israel.
Like a blowfish pretending to be 5 times bigger than it really is.
(It is also an admission that they don’t yet have nuke capability yet it doesn’t make hem sound weak… just foolhardy.)

I probably would have said the same thing as you Garry, had it not been that Israel’s enemies frequentky sya such things for ‘internal consumption’, and then go on to act like they say. I don’t think I have to name an example of this, do I?

Which suicidal neighbour would that be? …I don’t see SH sticking his neck out…

Maybe you should look better.”

Suicidal means wanting to die… all he needs to do is hold a large military rally and appear at a pre published time.
The fact that he tries to avoid US attempts to kill him suggests that he is not suicidal… the way he has treated his neighbours and his enemies in Iraq you could call him homocidal… but certainly not suicidal.

But what if some coup starts in Iraq? He’ll then go down anyway, and so does his entore regime. Certainly, he wouldn’t mind taking some people he profoundly hates with him. And what makes you think the Arab states will put the same kind of safety mechanisms in place as did the Soviets and the US?

“Sure, because Israel cannot destroy Arab states with it’s conventional army. It can hold off and defend from Arab attacks with the goal to destroy Israel.”

Yet you managed to come to an agreement with Egypt… go figure.

Huh??? I’m not sure whay you mean by this.

Mr. Hamza says that Iraq and Iran are dangerous, particularly when they have nuclear weapons. That is what he wrote.”

Congratulations Mr. Hamza. I could also say giving children a loaded AK-47 is also dangerous… can I get an award for stating the Bloody Obvious too?
Iran and Iraq are not happy with the current state of land ownership in the region. Both are friendly with groups that are in direct conflict with Israel.
Iran and Iraq are not dangerous to anybody… they don’t care one way or the other about NZ for instance… unless we support their enemies they don’t care about us.
So then we could perhaps add to what you have said about what Mr Hamza has said and say:

Mr. Hamza says that Iraq and Iran are dangerous to Israel and her allies, (they will become more dangerous when/if they get nuclear weapons)particularly when they have nuclear weapons. That is what he wrote.

This I can accept. Though I’d say that probably no leader in Iraq or Iran ever heard about NZ… 😀

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Arthur’s fine

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 26-06-02 AT 08:14 AM (GMT)]”Garry, what is your point. Do you, to do you not believe that the reactor at Osirak was used to produce nuclear weapons?”

My point is that I wasn’t thinking about the Osirak reactor when I made my first statement.
Someone stated that Israel was the victim and Iraq was the agressor.
I mentioned the fact that if Iraq wanted to progress into an area that many other nations have gone without problem that Israel would not sit by and do nothing and therefore was not a passive victim but powerful entity that can strike its enemies when it sees the need. (I don’t condemn them for that either, but the picture of innocent victim is BS).
If the reports you posted are genuine and there was a definite intentional threat then yes I don’t have any problem believing that the Reactor at Osirak was intended for producing WMD.
When the kid nextdoor gets a BB gun then soon all the neighbourhood kids are going to “need” one.
(by that last statement I mean I understand when two parties argue that when one pulls out a gun the other would like to have a gun to pull out too).

“True, but the Soviets and the US wanted to live more than they were prepared to die. “

But if the Soviets hadn’t had the bomb how easy would it have been for a war to start? The Soviets had no real capability of attacking the CONUS at the time and Northern Europe was largely devastated at the time anyway.

“When I look at the Palestinians, or the Iranians (at least their leadership), and when I look at Hizballah, I’m afraid I can’t say the same. “

I think if you look down the bottom of the food chain at the front line troops then yes they’d need to believe they were going straight to heaven if they were lucky enough to die. Near the top where decisions are made there seems to be rather more reticence to giving away such things. OBL hasn’t been on any NY corner recently ready to die for the cause… and while any nuclear retaliation by israel (and probably the US) will undoubtedly be aimed at the armed forces of the origin country of the nuke that started things off I think you and I and the leader who launched the weapon would know that enough weapons will be launched to make sure that the leaders who struck first get a good suntan from a missile mounted sun.

“Iranian religious leader Khamenei recently said he is prepared to use nuclear weapons to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, and that he knows there is a heavy price to pay, but that it is worth it.”

He has probably said many things in the past that many leaders both religious and political have said. I would suggest that was for local consumption and to create caution in the eyes of those in power in Israel.
Like a blowfish pretending to be 5 times bigger than it really is.
(It is also an admission that they don’t yet have nuke capability yet it doesn’t make hem sound weak… just foolhardy.)

“Which suicidal neighbour would that be? …I don’t see SH sticking his neck out…

Maybe you should look better.”

Suicidal means wanting to die… all he needs to do is hold a large military rally and appear at a pre published time.
The fact that he tries to avoid US attempts to kill him suggests that he is not suicidal… the way he has treated his neighbours and his enemies in Iraq you could call him homocidal… but certainly not suicidal.

“Sure, because Israel cannot destroy Arab states with it’s conventional army. It can hold off and defend from Arab attacks with the goal to destroy Israel.”

Yet you managed to come to an agreement with Egypt… go figure.

“Mr. Hamza says that Iraq and Iran are dangerous, particularly when they have nuclear weapons. That is what he wrote.”

Congratulations Mr. Hamza. I could also say giving children a loaded AK-47 is also dangerous… can I get an award for stating the Bloody Obvious too?
Iran and Iraq are not happy with the current state of land ownership in the region. Both are friendly with groups that are in direct conflict with Israel.
Iran and Iraq are not dangerous to anybody… they don’t care one way or the other about NZ for instance… unless we support their enemies they don’t care about us.
So then we could perhaps add to what you have said about what Mr Hamza has said and say:

Mr. Hamza says that Iraq and Iran are dangerous to Israel and her allies, (they will become more dangerous when/if they get nuclear weapons)particularly when they have nuclear weapons. That is what he wrote.