American Invation and Agression

Am i all that fine? Oh, thanks guys!

…the only thing i can add to PII’s remark is, that appearantly the explanations of the Bush government on it’s foreign actions are indeed satisfactory to this certain American individual.

What i said, Phantom, is not that we Europeans are NOT hypocritical nor ethically sound when it comes to foreign politics, but we DO try to explain it with a realistic story which is not only satisfactory to your average gullible uninformed all-i-care-about-is-that-my-tax-money-is-spent-on-fighting-on-foreign-soil-in-stead-of-education-and-healthcare voter.

The US has it’s interests abroad, and has the same right to act according to this interests as the Europeans, Israelis, Indians, Chinese, Iranians and North Koreans. But justifying every single act as something done for the good of democracy and the free world when anyone looking further than the White House’s press statement can see it’s only done for economical or geostrategical reasons is bullshit.

Basically, if Qusai Bush tells you that American troops are in Saudi Arabia to defend human rights and democracy, you are being lied to. It’s up to you if you want to accept that, how convenient and simple such a message is if you don’t really want to bother with what’s happening to the world outside your window.

If my country works on trade deals with the PRC or Iran, i am being told it is for economical reasons. For our conscience we do pretend to talk a bit about human rights, but at least we admit we are working in our OWN interest.

And Seahawk – you’re completely right when you say that Europeans in general have a tendency to take the side with what is percieved as the underdog. It’s pretty much historical: for centuries European countries have worked on the international arena according to the balance of power-theory. In this, unless a compromise can be reached, one should side with the weakest party to prevent the stronger party from becoming all-powerful. That’s why France and the Netherlands for example supported American independence in the 1770s.

Although it hasn’t worked since WW1, it has formed the base for Europe’s general tendency to work towards a concensus (yes, appeasement is part of this) and the general European attitude on conflicts (to side with the underdog) as described by Seahawk. As far as i can tell, America has in no way such a tradition as the country was built on being a dominant party.

This will of course all change when i get to be world ruler, of course.

Regards,

Arthur

RE: American Invation and Agression

“This is ridiculous. Some of you Euros are just so blinded by your “higher moral values”, or rather the values you think you have, which I must say are a joke because many of you are hypocrits.”

Wrong, Euro’s are no hypocrits, as anyone will admit what we did wrong in Bosnia, Congo, Algeria. I hypocrit is somebody who ‘s judging others while at the same time doing it themself. As most European countries don’t have the “luxury” of having a huge military force, I can’t imagine what we could do ourselves, as you said yourself. We are cry-babies however, but that’s something totally different. :7
It’s because we can’t match against the brave Americans, so we stay humble. The Americans, who are living under a constant danger … something us Europeans have never experienced … the past 50 years.

If so, it seems you are one of the few in Europe that understands who the actual bad guys are here.

“Yeah, and he’s becoming an endagered species here. :7

I’m not going to take anything you say as serious. I mean you don’t take things I say as serious so it’s an eye for an eye (at least until you clarify). Are you a Russian?

go ahead … you didn’t even read what the man said.

RE: Arthur’s fine

“I don’t consider the Europeans any better than the Americans – just look at the Belgians in Rwanda or Italians in Somalia. What i do like is that European countries or the EU don’t boast continuously about being the the good guys, fighting off evil and saving democracy.”

Well said Arthur. This is exactly what I also meant.

“It is obvious that Taiwan belongs to china, cause the people are chinese and they both speak chinese. So Austria belongs to germany and one half of Belgium to France and the other to the Netherlands.”

It doesn’t belong to China, it’s just the same people, same language, but not the same culture anymore. Half of Belgium doesn’t belong to Holland or France, they are independent, but does that mean they can’t share same interrests, goals?
If there would break out a war between Holland and France, you can bet half of Belgium will be on Holland’s side and the other on France. I didn’t even mention the small German-speaking population in the east (sorry Frank :7!), which we only got after WWII from Germany.

RE: Arthur’s fine

This is ridiculous. Some of you Euros are just so blinded by your “higher moral values”, or rather the values you think you have, which I must say are a joke because many of you are hypocrits. As I’ve said before thankfully it’s not all of you. Seahawk, you live in Germany correct? Were you born there? If so, it seems you are one of the few in Europe that understands who the actual bad guys are here. Garry, I can’t believe I just sat there and listened to you defend both Iraq and the Serbs. Until you clarify exactly what you were trying to say with all that crap, I’m not going to take anything you say as serious. I mean you don’t take things I say as serious so it’s an eye for an eye (at least until you clarify). Are you a Russian?

RE: Arthur’s fine

>Yes you Euros are dumb. Of course by killing children in
>Iraqi cities everything will be set right… just not sure
>how those innocent children could have successfully invaded
>Kuwaite and done all those bad things… but the Yanks had
>smart weapons that can take out your eye at 20,000ft… and
>your arm and your leg and most of your neighbours… yes
>killing innocent children will teach that evil Saddam to get
>too close to our oil in Saudi Arabia.

So you think that Saddam has a right to threaten Saudi Arabia, while the US has no right to help defend Saudi Arabia ??
No these childeren have done nothing wrong, but the government has. Like producing weapons of mass destruction and starting 2 wars in the last 25 years. But I know that was the US fault as well.

>Yes, the selfish ba$tards… imagine spending money on
>defence… what possible threat do they have to justify the
>amount of money they are spending… why they are surrounded
>by the atlantic and pacific ocean tens of thousands of miles
>away from anyone who dislikes them… whoops no that is the
>US… Iraq is situated amongst friends in the ME…

First possesing WMD is not building a selfdefense. When you add missiles that can reach Israel I would not call it the right to defend themselves. Furthermore whoops it was Iraq that started the last major wars in the region. And the same government is still in place, not likely that they are purely going for self defence. A government that is known for the use of chemical weapons, even against their own population.

>Yes… very shallow of us to think that because Israel and
>its greatest ally can’t seem to make an offer that the
>Palestinians can accept that perhaps another mediator that
>is unbiased might perhaps do a better job. Ask the Serbs and
>the KLA about the wonderful peace deals the US can come up
>with…

Well the KLA/serbs peace talk was fully backed by the EU and they were as involved as the US. And what do the EU governments do about the Israeli/Palestinian disaster?? Demand a ceasefire and hope for the next US mission. If they would stand up to their words, they could stopp the money supply to the palestinians and put a trade embargo on Israel until they reach an solution. But it is much easier to stand to your high moral views and criticse everyone else. Sure the US could do the same, but then there is no difference between the US and the EU then.

RE: Arthur’s fine

“We europeans have a stupid tendency to go with the so called underdogs. We hear people complain about the poor dying childeren in Iraq, that are killed by US bombers attacking their cities. We do not hear that Kuwait was invaded by the Iraqis. “

Yes you Euros are dumb. Of course by killing children in Iraqi cities everything will be set right… just not sure how those innocent children could have successfully invaded Kuwaite and done all those bad things… but the Yanks had smart weapons that can take out your eye at 20,000ft… and your arm and your leg and most of your neighbours… yes killing innocent children will teach that evil Saddam to get too close to our oil in Saudi Arabia.

“Nobody mentioned that the Iraqi government spents more money on defense then on buying food for the people.”

Yes, the selfish ba$tards… imagine spending money on defence… what possible threat do they have to justify the amount of money they are spending… why they are surrounded by the atlantic and pacific ocean tens of thousands of miles away from anyone who dislikes them… whoops no that is the US… Iraq is situated amongst friends in the ME…

“We blame the US for the failure pf the peace talks in the middle east, yet the EU is not able to come up with an own idea how to solve the problem, nor does it have any influence on the involved parties. “

Yes… very shallow of us to think that because Israel and its greatest ally can’t seem to make an offer that the Palestinians can accept that perhaps another mediator that is unbiased might perhaps do a better job. Ask the Serbs and the KLA about the wonderful peace deals the US can come up with…

RE: Arthur’s fine

The bases in europe have another big advantage for both sides.
They help to creata a better interoberability between the forces and it builds relations on a personal level. Europe would be just a funny placw with strange people for most Americans, if there were no service members that spent some time in europe. Vice versa for the europeans and the US.

But I do know that the main reason is to have starting places for invasions of european countries (like the Netherlands). So in a kind of way the US troops occupy europe and force their will on the poor local people.
I´m certain that without US intervention the EU would have found a much better solution for the Kosovo. (something like having all ethnic albanians as refugees in europe and entering a kind of critical dialoge with the serbian leaders, touching on the return of albanians during trade conferences)

We europeans have a stupid tendency to go with the so called underdogs. We hear people complain about the poor dying childeren in Iraq, that are killed by US bombers attacking their cities. We do not hear that Kuwait was invaded by the Iraqis. (Oh I forgot it was a unification of two countries that belong together – like China and Taiwan) Nobody mentioned that the Iraqi government spents more money on defense then on buying food for the people. And if Iraq develops a ballistic missile that can reach europe, the same people will go screaming for the US how they could ever let this happen.
We blame the US for the failure pf the peace talks in the middle east, yet the EU is not able to come up with an own idea how to solve the problem, nor does it have any influence on the involved parties. (That is no ideas except, that everyone should life in peace and that the imperialistic behavior of Israel and the US must be stopped)

RE: Arthur’s fine

Lots of people on both sides of the Altantic do not understand why the US maintains troops in places without a valid military threat (e.g. dozens of bases in Europe). The answer is very simple – it’s a financial gift from the US (people) to the host government (without looking like a gift).

Depending on size, a base costs from tens of millions to hundreds of millions of dollars to support each year. By US law, most of the daily support services have to be purchased from the local economy. Fresh food, electrical power, water, sewage service, garbage service, groundskeeping, building maintenance and some military construction are purchased locally. Add rent and housekeeping expenses for those soldiers who live off-base on the local economy. Add purchases those soldiers make when off-base on leave. It adds up to a great windfall for the locals. There is not enough money to provide fuel or ammunition for training, nor spare parts to keep the weapons in working order, nor buy replacements for weapons that are too worn to be servicable, but the base costs are paid on time.

RE: You’ve mistaken Arthur….

>Well I think I made a big mistake when reading the whole
>thread.
>
>>
>It is obvious that Taiwan belongs to china, cause the people
>are chinese and they both speak chinese. So Austria belongs
>to germany and one half of Belgium to France and the other
>to the Netherlands.
>
>>
>Is it irony or is it not ??

Oh Seahawk, Thanks for that sense of humour. It´s really a refreshing, intelligent and interesting comparision. Really delighful. So the US speaks English and belongs to Britain, and South American to Spain (you know, they speak Spanish).

Arthur’s fine

I have no problems with Arthur at all. I’m not addressing Arthur, but just some others in my opinion are rather anti-US irregardless of facts. If facts point to US at fault, i’ll join in and criticize. But, some would say things that are absolutely not true, or things that was proved false to them (so you can’t give excuses like knowing whether that’s true or false) and later bring it up again. We hold dearly in our bill of rights, and we fully understand criticism. What i don’t understand are criticisms that are groundless. About being good and do good, the European leaders don’t have the dilima of explaining to their people why they need to police the world to prevent chaos from going on. Everybody want’s to see their families and friends safe, and being a soldier in hostile territories is the must hazardous occupation. How would you as an American leader explain to your people why your sons and daughters are there fighting for somebody else’s life and well being. Honestly, the easiest way is to explain that we are doing good for the people there and fighting tyranny there. How else are you going to explain that to your own people? If the Europeans want the US to continue to police the world, then they should be sensitive enough to realize that it’s American lives that are at stake. Sure, you guys can have a few soldiers there, but chances are the next body to fall is an American. How would your government explain to us that why you don’t need to pay both in monetary and human resources for this, yet you want us to make this world a safer world. Remember when Bush just came on board and so many European leaders criticize us for showing signs of isolationists. How can you not care for the psychological needs of the common Americans. Like i’ve always said, we are reluctant world police. I want social security and medicare. To get that, let our military come home so we can save quite a few billion dollars for our internal needs. I don’t see Europeans coughing that up. I’m not going to be stupid like some leftist Americans where they blame the US for everything because other capable and righteous leaders around the world refuses to step up the plate and take responsibility also.

RE: You’ve mistaken Arthur….

Arthur

That gets a B+ from me. Now if you could only learn to love the the F-16 Arthur, you could get an A. Sorry! This is not the place to talk aviation.

Regards

RE: Saudi oil for now…

It’s the old story of ‘supply and demand’. Opening alternative oil supply from Russia will force the Saudis to drastically drop the price of their oil. That means less wealth for the Saudis. Pinching their pocketbook is one way to keep them from funding radical Islam. Lower energy prices is also good for the WORLD economy.

The pact signed between the US and Russia a couple weeks ago provides investments and price supports to assure the Russian oil production infrastructure is competitive. Sure Amreican and European companies will see a profit from the investment, but the net result will be lower energy.

RE: You’ve mistaken Arthur….

Idealpolitik? what an oxymoron …

—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: You’ve mistaken Arthur….

Hmmm… would it be possible to abstract this discussion into a Realpolitik versus Idealpolitik-discussion? If we know which side to pick of course.

Regards,

Arthur

RE: You’ve mistaken Arthur….

“European countries or the EU don’t boast continuously about being the the good guys, fighting off evil and saving democracy”

It does not look that way from where I’m standing. Europe constantly boasts of its supposed morals and ethics, so much so that one of the EU member states has decided that it knows what morality is and has declared itself the judge of nations, with the authority to judge whomever it sees fit. How arrogant is that?

Yet unlike the US, Europe does not actually back up it big words with actual deeds. On the contrary, it sometimes seems that “Human Rights” is the fig leaf behind which European nations hide their own self interests. It is highly symbolic that on the same day that 19 Israelis are killed by a Hamas suicide bomber, a European trade delegation arrives in Iran, the principal funder of Hamas. European nations talk of “engagement” and “reaproachment”, hollow words that mask their solely economic interests. Europe sets up a symbolic human rights dialogue alongside its economic dealings with Iran, yet hardly links one to the other. So what if Iran is only years away from a nuclear bomb or that it is still the world’s largest exporter of international terrorism? Europe doesn’t care – it’s not Europeans dying.

The EU nations deliberated for years without taking the necessary steps in former Yugoslavia. Europe, left to its own devices, would have done nothing for occupied Kuwait either (we’d probably see a trade delgation going to Iraq and ‘bringing up’ the issue of Kuwait at one time or another. then they’d forget about it as to not aggravate their Iraqi hosts). There is a time for talk and there is a time for deeds, and the US has shown that it is capable of that. One would have hoped that Europe would have learned from its past. But no, the war on terrorism is America’s war. Europe is immune from terrorism, isn’t it?

—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: You’ve mistaken Arthur….

Well I think I made a big mistake when reading the whole thread.

I mean everyone should know that the USA is the great Satan and that they got what they deserved. They force childeren to work as slave labours in poor countries, they invade friendly nations, they stopp natural reunifications (like Iraq and Kuwait) that the majority of the smaller countries want. Furhtermore they only have bases in Europe to invade any countriy that mover out of the line. During the cold war they only stationed their troops here to control their area of influence and by that stopped a united and socialist europe.

It is obvious that Taiwan belongs to china, cause the people are chinese and they both speak chinese. So Austria belongs to germany and one half of Belgium to France and the other to the Netherlands.

So you defenders of the great Satan if you withdraw your troops from all other countries and reduce your armed forces the world will love you.

Is it irony or is it not ??

RE: You’ve mistaken Arthur….

In no way i wanted to give the impression that i consider European standards to be in any way superior above American ones, or vice versa. What i failed to explain was that the only thing i consider US foreign policy to fail in is public relations, nothing else. The point is that the explanations the US administration gives to it’s own people is generally not seen as satisfactory by second or third parties. It’s a logical problem though, as superficially the only party of real concern to any US government is it’s own people (e.g. the voters). Yet, with the US’ large role on the international arena, some effort IMHO should be made to explain US actions abroad as well, in a more satisfying manner. Some parties just won’t buy it when Bush starts calling certain countries undemocratic totalitarian states, yet actively supports another country which is at least in non-US perception equally undemocratic and totalitarian.

But if you ask me if US behaviour in international affairs is any worse than European behaviour in international affars – no, IMHO it is not. Countries like France and Britain have a nice tradition of mingling in other country’s affairs, with much less openness as the US. Even less satisfactory in explaining their actions. Yet on the other hand European explanations on foreign politics don’t use simplistic terms like ‘good versus evil’ – it is a concept which just isn’t taken seriously on this side of the Atlantic. Perhaps we are too cynical and -yes- bitter for such explanations.

Yet what you seem to forget is that Europe isn’t as passive in international politics as is often thought. Operation Alba, which ended the bigger part of the anarchy engulfing Albania in 1997 was led by the Italians. Lybian incursions into Chad were fought off by the French in the late 1980s. The Europeans were the strongest advocates of the boycot against South Africa in the Apartheid days – just some examples i can think of right now, there are definately more. It’s not just the US which does such things, but Europe is generally a lot more quiet about it.

I don’t consider the Europeans any better than the Americans – just look at the Belgians in Rwanda or Italians in Somalia. What i do like is that European countries or the EU don’t boast continuously about being the the good guys, fighting off evil and saving democracy.

Regards,

Arthur

RE: Saudi oil for now…

“In fact, it was recently announced that Russian production exceeded Saudi production for the first time last month. Once a reliable alternative to Saudi oil is found, the plug can be pulled on the Saudis. I’d love to see that happen.”

Hahahaha.
DJ… you actually think the US will go from a dependancy on Saudi Oil to a dependancy on Russian oil? …Russian oil is the backup and may exceed Saudi oil but all the US is doing is creating a backup support network. All the financial problems in Russia with lack of medical supplies and problems with infrastructure and supply and the West generously aids them with billions to help them pump oil… boy they’ll all be sleeping like babies tonight glad that they have done something for Russia instead of themselves…}>

“Europe, since diplomacy was invented here, trade with anyone and don´t isolate anyone from anything. “

When Europe was a place for Hunter Gatherers there were cities in places like north africa and the Middle East… Iran, Somalia, Egypt… etc.
Just like most things it was something else Europe pinched… though they did use it to good effect… the diplomacy they practised was very useful in screwing the “dumb” natives in many countries…

RE: Saudi oil for now…

Yes, the US supports the Saudis because the WORLD economy relies on it for energy. Note that the US and some European countries are pumping $ Billions into Russia to develop their oil production and export. This includes Americans and Brits training Russian oil crews. This was a key event of Bush’s recent trip to Russia. In fact, it was recently announced that Russian production exceeded Saudi production for the first time last month. Once a reliable alternative to Saudi oil is found, the plug can be pulled on the Saudis. I’d love to see that happen.

RE: You’ve mistaken Arthur….

Europe has a more pragmatical and hypocritical view which make us wider margins of manouver. I suppose the US is much more direct and we are more subtle. We don´t consider a complete good or evil, black or white, or isolation. I find American more basic in his external relations, and this doesn´t mean to be something negative. One day a friend like Saddam can become a ruthless enemy. I am judging it since every country has the right to decide whom should they trade with. So I find this thread a bit childish and full of senseless reproaches in both sides. Europe, since diplomacy was invented here, trade with anyone and don´t isolate anyone from anything. As Geforce points, we assume that things can be changed from inside if one supports his small changes in Iran. So it´s not a question of moral. Power is power interests are interests whateve come from either Europe of the US. Coming back from Iran, he has given the right direction and reformists have advanced quite a lot. If we isolate them again, they could go back to their isolation because they would feel a necesity in getting into the coccon. The same applies to Korea, in which unexpected changes are happening due to diplomatic moves and probably the country will collapse soon. And in the case of Lybia, trade with Europe is helping to soften the regime. And Cuba, a single visit of the Pope was more helpful than embargo. Go folk….stop throwing bullets from all sides of the Atlantic. Nobody is better than the other. It seems that more things separate us than the atlantic. If you want to go ahead, please open another topic. This is being difficult to open. For me it´s hard to explain what I feel since English is not my mother language.