American Invation and Agression

RE: Weird development of this thread…

There are really interesting topics, to get involved in these senseless threads. I have read this thread completely, which has been terribly tiresome due to intensity of the arguments. There´s a thing that many americans should be aware. Don´t you even wonder why there´s so much hatred against you?. Of course and since I assume you´re intelligent people won´t answer me: “the world envy us”, because it´s really simplistic and everyone is happy to live where one lives. Sometimes is really positive stop waving the flag and listening the others. My life is usually to complete to be anti o proamerican and my closest concerns go my inmediate enviroment, so I don´t normally care what americans think or do as long as it doesn´t affect me. It seems to me that, only in the US, patriotism is a virtue which makes them think: “well we are superior, how lucky we are to be choosen by God to perform his deeds. President Bush with maniqueist talk remark this view”. So you feel like telling the rest of the world what to do, what to eat when to have fun, not knowing that you´re a minority in this world and world is diversity. And you aren´t morally superior because you are democrats. Democracy is good for us, for the west, for me…but many countries in this world have to get to that conclusion by themselves. About the right to intervention. Of course the US has the right to defend themselves. But who the hell you think you´re to decide what leader should have the Iraquis. It seems that only the US sees potential dangers everywhere. I have to remind you that I felt really sorry and shocked for the 11 sept attack, and probably something had to be done, but terrorist wasn´t invented in American and we have been suffering from terrorism for years and even in places like Colombia or Africa there are more victims and people are patient. Terrorist requires a long time, not killing flies with a gun, or using it as excuse to build silly axis of avil with your enemies. Who the hell yoy think you are to keep your nose at Taiwan and keeping the chinese populations split?. Instead of joining them again, promoting confrontation. A good advise, since the US is a great country with great values, to be loved by others is simply: listen the others and give up the general idea that you are the world policemen with the right to rule the world´s fate. America is big enough to take care of yourselves. And please stop being our moral advisor. For genarations we have been allies, now we are treated like henchmen. We want to walk alone. The US should be pleased about it. I suppose you will answer me in harsh words, but make one thing clear: I am not antiamerican, socialist or commie. I have lots of friends there and I feel that the US a fascinating and vital country.

Weird development of this thread…

This discussion started with the fact that the US government has approved a law which gives a legal basis for the US to take military actions against one of it’s allies – and it ends with the complete impossibility for some to understand the grudge certain Europeans have against the US… Is it so hard to see that it’s exactly this attitude the USA has in regard of other countries is the cause for the negative comments the US gets?

Regards from the second-best country on earth,

Arthur

RE: Same old PHANTOMII Crap

Geforce

If you are quick that Dutch girl may still be available. Com’on, just reach out and turn the computer off.:-) I would go with you but I am to old for her.

🙁

RE: Same old PHANTOMII Crap

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-06-02 AT 05:28 PM (GMT)]Phantom, you know what. I won’t to say anything. You’ll twist my words anyway, so I’ll just leave it blank. When did I say I was an expert?

BTW, may I ask you a question? Why did you return?

And one last remark : ENGLAND IS NOT A COUNTRY, IT IS A REGION, DAMNED !!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

Geforce, before I actually take the crap you spew out seriously, I need some confirmation of your authority of world politics, economy, and other such matters. You are so blinded, it is not even funny. You put more effort into this “well, the EU is just as good as the US”, than you do into evening listening to what others are saying.

And Mongu, I’m going to try and pretend like that crap you wrote, I never had the misfortune of reading. You realize that you have just basically said that my country was attacked because we aren’t diplomatic enough to terrorists and rogue nations. That’s what you said and don’t try to deny it. Therefore it can be concluded that that is the biggest bunch of bullshit I’ve heard in a long time. Just how exactly did you expect my country to act after around thousands of our countrymen died in a sneak attack. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the victims were civilians. The policy of the United States is to not negotiate with terrorists, so what is the point of your claim that we aren’t diplomatic enough. The animals that committed this atrocity deserved to be treated with bullets, not words. As does anyone with connections to them or anyone who supports them. The Israeli thing is pointless to bring up. On top of that, Yasser Arafat is a FORMER TERRORIST, and he still supports it, so why do you get so defensive when it comes to the Palestinians, or rather him in particular? He’s not an innocent man as his outward appearance would lead you to believe. If the same thing had happened to some nation in Europe or the “wonderful, perfect EU”, your reaction would have been the same. And Geforce, I had a good laugh when you said that ya’ll are helping us fight this war on terrorism. What a joke. You guys can’t even commit to a simple no-fly zone. Your commitment to this anti-terrorist campaign is there, I’ll give you credit for that. But you could do a lot more than you have. Keep in mind I’m referring to the vast majority of Europe (NATO nations anyway) (excluding England of course).

Sauron, it’s kinda like talking to a brick wall isn’t it? You keep it up though, as will I. Geforce in particular is like a brickwall. The self-proclaimed “expert on world politics, economies, and foreign affairs.” Don’t forget Sauron, if Geforce says it, it must be true…. 😉

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

Geforce as you mentioned the Dutch, why don’t you let go of your joystick, turn off your computer and go outside in the fresh air and see if you can’t find one of those great looking Dutch girls to take your mind off all this crap we have been talking about. She could keep you mellow while the Americans keep you safe. In any event, it couldn’t do you any harm and it would do wonders for your outlook. I only wish.

Regards

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

our best friends (read allies) and we fight together.
>friends to that.

Nice friends we have. I’m sure the Dutch now will feel much safer. Look, the Americans are invading den Hague. Don’t worry, they are our friends :D.

Actually US policy is far more rationally than the European: the world can be divided into two fronts : the good and the bad guys. If that ain’t easy. What a dream world we live in … please can I be a good guy? Pick me, pick me!!

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

Geforce go back and review the crap that started these threads.Your on to other subjects entirely.

Regards

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-06-02 AT 10:00 AM (GMT)]>Good points Phantom.
>
> Unfortunatly, you are up against a bunch of guys who live
>in a socialist dreamland and who have been raised on a
>steady diet of European complacency.

Socialist dreamland? Com’on, Europe is full of rightwing gov’ts. The only true leftist gov’t is the British :D. The conservatives are far more pro-European than the socialists in fact, for the simple reason that they want to create an isolated Europe.

>They are they same trolls who post threads which are simply intended to inspire anti-American rants. They make silly remarks about American politics, businesses, justice, social values, military
>history, foreign policy, etc. They are full of disingenous
>comments, twist facts, lie, quote out of context and use
>stupid examples to make weak arguments.

Than prove me wrong instead of saying that my arguments are weak. These are simply facts, the European economy is strong, and in some areas, better, like export. The fact that the Euro is not as strong as the dollar has nothing to do with economy itself. Simply because EU puts more efforts in export than import, it is better for us to have a currency which is lower than the dollar.

>Fortunately Phantom, they are pretty obvious. I agree that
>jealousy is part of it but I also believe that much of their
>attitude stems from the fact that they simply resent the US
>because it has been able and willing to help Europe in so
>many ways.

Ohh, should we start crying now? It were your grandfathers who helped us, for which we are gratefull. The generation now in charge has not done so much for us, really. BTW, we also helped you in your war on terror, why do so many people seem to forget this. Jealousy is an instinct, just as revenge, but what we are trying to do is rationally building up arguments. Otherwise we might as well close this forum.

It bothers them that they needed the help I
>suppose.

>A few threads back, this same bunch was ranting about about
>how the US starts all the wars, how it didn’t get involved
>in WWII until it was all over, how the US forces were all
>cowards, blah, blah, blah! This got started because someone
>on this forum made a lame attempt to use the US presidents
>visit to a US military cemetary, as an excuse to slag the
>US. What horsesh*t all that was.

>I get a particular charge when someone from one of the
>backwater nations where no one ever gets to vote (and where
>the leaders wear military uniforms), pipes up and agrees how
>bad the US is and how superior the dictatorship that he
>lives in is.

D’uh, most regimes which are supported by the US are far less democratic than the ones which criticize the US. You mean Pakistan or what?

>Pretty strange stuff but I think you are right in agreeing
>that most rational folks in Europe are adult enough to see
>through this crap.

Well, the old folks here indeed are pro-US, but the new generation, not only on the continent, but also on the British Isles are less pro-American. But we don’t burn flags here, we don’t attack the embassies, we don’t throw molotov-cocktails at the embassador, we only protest. Why can be so wrong about that, tell me …

>Regards

US applies two law-systems : one for US citizens and one for non_US residents. They support the UN when they bring Serbian mass-muderers to justice in Den Hague, but when it comes to their own citizens, suddenly, they change their course 180°’s.

I’ve been watching the Dutch news, and though the average Dutchmen doesn’t fear a US intervention, it doesn’t promote pro-US feelings either. Your image to the outside world has a lot to do with the image your are building up yourself. I’m not saying that the US is 100% responsible for what they’ve been trough the last few months (indeed also jealousy from poor countries who envy the US, but isn’t that a normal reaction???), but I’m sure that if they would be a bit more diplomatic, they wouldn’t have to suffer from so many anti-US feelings around the world.

And Bush who’s always repeating his nation is at war. The US IS NOT AT WAR!! But these kinds of expressions promote feelings on nationalism and unitity among the US citizens. The US was at war on 911, but not today. It’s strange, most nations who ARE actually at war, try to say the opposite.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

Good points Phantom.

Unfortunatly, you are up against a bunch of guys who live in a socialist dreamland and who have been raised on a steady diet of European complacency. They are they same trolls who post threads which are simply intended to inspire anti-American rants. They make silly remarks about American politics, businesses, justice, social values, military history, foreign policy, etc. They are full of disingenous comments, twist facts, lie, quote out of context and use stupid examples to make weak arguments.

Fortunately Phantom, they are pretty obvious. I agree that jealousy is part of it but I also believe that much of their attitude stems from the fact that they simply resent the US because it has been able and willing to help Europe in so many ways. It bothers them that they needed the help I suppose.

A few threads back, this same bunch was ranting about about how the US starts all the wars, how it didn’t get involved in WWII until it was all over, how the US forces were all cowards, blah, blah, blah! This got started because someone on this forum made a lame attempt to use the US presidents visit to a US military cemetary, as an excuse to slag the US. What horsesh*t all that was.

I get a particular charge when someone from one of the backwater nations where no one ever gets to vote (and where the leaders wear military uniforms), pipes up and agrees how bad the US is and how superior the dictatorship that he lives in is.

Pretty strange stuff but I think you are right in agreeing that most rational folks in Europe are adult enough to see through this crap.

Regards

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

PII i don’t think you get it. we ctisizes you but are not anti maerica. you msut rember the foundation of democracy is free speech. we are crtizing the way you do thing like we crtize eveyone else and you crtize us. despite all this your still our best friends (read allies) and we fight together. friends to that.

rabie :9

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-06-02 AT 09:44 PM (GMT)]How can you possibly think the US is acting to protect democracy and freedom by going after Saddam?

Gefore hit the nail on the head when he intoned that the no-fly zone etc.. was motivated primarily by oil.

I’m a Brit, and I’m not particularly fond of the institutions of Europe. Until a few years ago, I was enthusiastic about the US – I even applied for some jobs there after I graduated from University.

But the reaction to 11/9 has really turned me 180 degrees. I cannot credit myself with being so naive as to actually admire the US. Rather than asking why people could hate their country so much, they instinctively decide that the solution is to dislike everything which isn’t American.

GWB does not even have the effectiveness to make any meaningful actions in the wake of the terrorist attacks. Domestic airline security is still poor, Tom Ridge is a figure of fun, US sea ports still have very poor security – but on the other hand, foreign steel is tarrif bared. Effective measures, what?

Oh – I forgot to mention the Afghan war. What a pathetic #####-up. How do some of these guys become Generals? Do they fail quiz shows?

* In an attempt to win hearts and minds, they ignore the advice of the people with the best track record, the Brits. Against advice, they drop cluster bombs everywhere and lots of civilians die.

* When the SAS start tracking Bin Laden via his satellite phone transmissions, the Department of Defense announce this to the world. Shockingly, Bin Laden turns his phone off. What a cheat!

* When a CIA officer seemingly commits a war crime, GWB presents the Stars and Stripes to the widow of the “hero”.

How can our allies possibly find fault with us?!

We do so, and your reaction is to respond that we are US-bashing.

Well, like I said I was pretty much pro-US and anti-Europe quite recently. But the reaction of the US leadership has been, basically, vulgar. The arguments put forward by the Europeans contain more in the way of logic. The recent escalations in Israel are another example. US policy = back Israel all the way. Rationale = I don’t know, honestly.

But when the quaint yuropee-ans make suggestions, you tell us to shut up. Maybe terrorism does not affect us. Perhaps US-funded groups like the IRA are not terrorists. Perhaps they are freedom fighters.

The central thrust of the argument which Phantom and basically all the pro-US rabble have used is weak. They struggle to cover over the fact that the Americans want one law to apply to them, and another law to apply to the rest of the world. Their only argument is that they will not tolerate their great freedoms and democracy to be eroded by an international court which is not directly accountable to the American electorate.

I am faintly apologetic for babbling on so much, but I find my entire belief system eroding because of the US reaction to 11/9.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

Within the couple of years you’ll be eating your words about Saddam not being replaced. I can guarantee you that we are going to get him out of power. It isn’t question of if we will, but a question of when we will. Too bad the F-4G’s aren’t back to wipe out his A/D forces all over again. 🙂

Regarding superpowers, apparently you feel the United States will cease to be one, so please tell me when. Don’t forget, Geforce, you are the self-proclaimed expert on world politics and foreign affairs.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-06-02 AT 02:43 PM (GMT)]>Don’t even give me that crap about us “being the only ones
>to bring people to justice because we are too good.” We
>(along with England for the most part) are the only ones
>committed to ending some of the problems (namely problem
>countries like Iraq) or at least dealing with them.

England is not a country. The UK is, there’s a big difference. How about calling every American a Texan or a Californian?

>The United States and England are the only two nations with
>enough resolve to actually enforce the no-fly zones, or to
>really commit their forces to these things. You claim that
>Europeans are all just and proper, yet most of the EU’s
>nations have no resolve to fight for anything.

Please keep in mind that you are NOT fighting for world peace, not for democracy, but to keep the oil at low prices. Do you think the average Afghan is so much happier now? Sure, he has a right to vote, and indeed, the women don’t need to wear burqua’s anymore. But she lost her man, her brother … I’m not saying that’s the US’s fault, but there’s no such thing as a good war. War in essence is egocentric and selfish.

>And I’m a saying war is the answer? No. I’m referring to situations
>where force is necessary, such as Saddam. And Saddam goes
>back way before 9/11, so don’t through the ever popular,
>you’re just doing it for 9/11 in there.

Well, US could have stopped Saddam a long time ago, but that time, Saddam was an important ‘ally’ (remember the Tanker War?). Indeed, Saddam is an asshole, and if the US could manage to replace him, that would be a good thing. But they won’t. The fact that he terrorises his own people (a lot more than Americans or Europeans) won’t change that.

>As far as being a nice place to live, I assure you, the United States has many more great areas to live or vacation in than Europe. Our economy is stronger and the dollar, while you claim some of
your currency can compete with it, is still in the end
stronger.

I don’t want to start with who’s the strongest, at this moment US is the only superpower, but that could change very soon. I’m only saying that the average European has nothing to be jealous on, just like Americans don’t envy Europeans. Sure, you may think US is a better place to live in, I’ve been to both, and I both like them.
And talking about economics: well both are as important, the US puts more in import, the EU has more export. Both are equal, but as I said before, everything can change. China and India will also join the club of Economic superpowers, not only reserved to the US, Japan and the EU.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

Don’t even give me that crap about us “being the only ones to bring people to justice because we are too good.” We (along with England for the most part) are the only ones committed to ending some of the problems (namely problem countries like Iraq) or at least dealing with them. The United States and England are the only two nations with enough resolve to actually enforce the no-fly zones, or to really commit their forces to these things. You claim that Europeans are all just and proper, yet most of the EU’s nations have no resolve to fight for anything. And I’m a saying war is the answer? No. I’m referring to situations where force is necessary, such as Saddam. And Saddam goes back way before 9/11, so don’t through the ever popular, you’re just doing it for 9/11 in there. As far as being a nice place to live, I assure you, the United States has many more great areas to live or vacation in than Europe. Our economy is stronger and the dollar, while you claim some of your currency can compete with it, is still in the end stronger. You guys can’t even decide on the Euro for crying out loud. As I’ve said in the past, when Europe becomes perfect, you can judge us all you like, but until that time comes I ask that you stop being so hypocritical and focus on your own problems (which are many and varied) before worrying about ours.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

In reaction on that law, I think that the European gov’ts should ask the Americans to withdraw their troops from the continent. Does France take measures against the US because they captured Massoud, said to be responsible for 911? No, and in fact, I would understand this from France, because Massoud is risking death penalty in the US.
The US is the big hypocrit here, they are the only ones good enough to bring people to justice.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

Good old Phantom, always here to defend his homeland.

>Oooh, all this has convinced me to move to Europe, where
>everyone is always right and all the world is
>good…………

Yeah that’s true. Europe is full of hypocrits. Just look at the institutions of the EU. They are preaching on how they want to expend the EU, but at the same time, the rich memberstates (well actually all of them but naive Belgium) are blocking the expansion because they fear that it might have an influence on their way of life.

>This is ridiculous. You Europeans are supposed to be our
>allies. You are overly concerned about something that is not
>going to happen. Many of you are simply hypocrits. You will
>tell us how to live our lives, but then not fall under those
>same standards.

We are your allies, probably your only allies. US has more enemies than friends. What does Bush mean with the “civilised world”. US, Europe and maybe Japan, South Korea … who’s backing the US on the ground in Afghanistan? Israel, ROK, Japan?? No, Royal Marines, Italian carabinieri.

I’m sick of the anti-US feeling on this
>board. Well, I suppose I shouldn’t worry about you guys
>though because I’m lucky I’m an American and not a European.

It depends on what you mean with this. If you think your standards of living are higher, than I hope you can live the rest of your happy live with that impression, but it is not. On the other hand, if American is like waving flags and preaching democracy, well, than I have to admit you’re right. There are no Europeans waving the flags when something bad happens (only the queens 50th anniversary :-)). Not even with the chauvenistic French, unless it’s about footbal.

>The dislike of the U.S. from various parts of the world is
>due to one simple human emotion – jealousy. And don’t act
>like that is a load of crap and try to deny it because many
>of you know it is true. Without the United States, there
>would be many things (including first line military
>hardware) that your nations would be without.

The stories … the facts. Yeah, we wouldn’t be flying F-16’s, Mirages instead, but average Joe on the street really doesn’t care about that. Jealous on what? As I mentioned above, a lot EU-members are in the top ten of the worlds best nations to live in, together with Australia. US is not in that list, so I wouldn’t know why we would be so jealous. Our economy is almost as strong (look at BNP’s), we have a currency which can compete against the almighty dollar. We don’t have Bush, gee, are we lucky. Without the US, we would be still cave dwellers … Let me tell you something, without the Spaniards, the Britons and the French, you wouldn’t be anyware.

US is much like the Roman Empire. They were very proud, especially on their law-system (now democracy) and their military superiority. Indeed, the Romans did some great work, they were the ones who civilised the rest of Europe, but on the other hand, they were also very imperialistic. Still, they took over most from the Greeks (Europeans). They laughed at the weak Greeks, considered them to be weak, but at the same time, they were using the Greek sciences, phylosophy, poetry. If a Roman asked to a Greek why they weren’t imperialistic anymore, the Greek would answer, we were, one day. But such things are only temporary. New nations always make faults, just like Europeans did 150 years ago (even bigger mistakes). But now I think we can say we have more experience, and therefor it is our duty to judge the US, to prevent it’s own demise. History always repeats itself …

>You still have it because of the United States. As hard as it may be
>for some of you to believe, the United States is not the bad
>guy. Note, that this message only applies to those who have
>a dislike or hatred of the United States. I realize there
>are millions of well-meaning Europeans who don’t fit the
>descriptions I have laid down above. Those who I’m aiming
>this message at, you know who you are.

Did anyone of these guys say that? It’s just, how would you react if Holland signed a new law which says they might invade the US if something shitty happens. OK, I know US will not attempt to attack Holland, but the message is very clear: we break for nobody: NOT FOR OUR ALLIES, NOT FOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. Bravo, US!

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-06-02 AT 05:11 AM (GMT)]Oooh, all this has convinced me to move to Europe, where everyone is always right and all the world is good…………

This is ridiculous. You Europeans are supposed to be our allies. You are overly concerned about something that is not going to happen. Many of you are simply hypocrits. You will tell us how to live our lives, but then not fall under those same standards. I’m sick of the anti-US feeling on this board. Well, I suppose I shouldn’t worry about you guys though because I’m lucky I’m an American and not a European. The dislike of the U.S. from various parts of the world is due to one simple human emotion – jealousy. And don’t act like that is a load of crap and try to deny it because many of you know it is true. Without the United States, there would be many things (including first line military hardware) that your nations would be without. And I don’t care about the reasons we sold/gave it to you. You still have it because of the United States. As hard as it may be for some of you to believe, the United States is not the bad guy. Note, that this message only applies to those who have a dislike or hatred of the United States. I realize there are millions of well-meaning Europeans who don’t fit the descriptions I have laid down above. Those who I’m aiming this message at, you know who you are.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-06-02 AT 01:03 AM (GMT)]Europeans couldn’t give two hoots about freedom or democracy where trade is concerned. The Brits supplied weaponry for use against the population of East Timor, we arm the Saudi regime. The list goes on…

Freedom and democracy are nice to encourage, but not at the expense of trade relations. Every country (especially the UK) which has chosen an “ethical foreign policy” has ended up with egg on their faces for, essentially, the above reason.

But…

The US is exactly the same.

Maybe more so, because it cooperated with “evil” (spot the not so subtle irony) regimes not just for trade (as with Europe) but also for strategic geo-political purposes.

Do you SERIOUSLY think that US support of Taiwan is purely because of a spring of concern for the people of Taiwan!? I don’t think anyone would believe that genuine concern was 100% of the reason. Even to consider that it was say, 75%, of the reason would still be ludicrously naive.

I might just add that the US take on Israel/Palestine suffers likewise (trade + geo-political ambition) Maybe there is more genuine sympathy (let’s keep the voters happy) – but Palestine is heardly a big trade bloc is it.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

Well said Vortex.

Regards