Atheism

Rather his point was there are no all-athiest groups….(think of a mythical “Atheist Doctors in the Third World” or “Non-believers Children’s Hospital”) doing good deeds.

Excuse me, but what is the point in organizing ‘Atheist doctors in the Third World’? Being atheist doesn’t neccesarily mean that you share exactly the same opinions as all other atheists. We’re all individuals you know. Sometimes we do share the same opinions as other people – and we organize us in organizations such as Doctors without borders (‘Médicins sans frontières).

I have a problem with christian people who only do what the bible tells them to. You can see how their faces shines with a smile when they meet handicapped people and organize aid – but their eyes aren’t smiling. They’re virtually just doing this because the bible tells them to, and because it gives them a lot of positive reactions in newspapers etc. Therefore, they are very eager to tell people that they are from this and that church.

Another thing is the hypocrites that call themselves christians. I knew a military fighter pilot who was a christian (and my assigned instructor). So please enlighten me how you could be christian and a military personel trained to actually kill people? It doesn’t make sense if you read the bible.

regards,
Cliff

what was the old saying”, there are no atheist’s in foxhole’s!

First of all, how can this person call themselves a comedian? Second isn’t that French doctors without borders a non religious group? .

Comedians often point out things they think are ironic….

I think you missed his point.

It is not that there aren’t good secular groups, of course there are…i.e. most government agencies (at least in countries without an ‘official’ religion)
Rather his point was there are no all-athiest groups….(think of a mythical “Atheist Doctors in the Third World” or “Non-believers Children’s Hospital”) doing good deeds.

“If atheists are so great and smart, why aren’t there atheist hospitals, schools, children & senior citizen homes, charities?”

Possibly it’s because without some sort of formal moral code, people are too preoccupied with themselves to think of others?

First of all, how can this person call themselves a comedian? Second isn’t that French doctors without borders a non religious group? In New Zealand pretty much most of the hospitals and schools and old peoples homes are or were at some time state run.

There were plenty run by the Salvation Army or religious groups, but there are also horror stories about child molestations from such places as well. Not that state run institutions were perfect, at least the state dealt with such crimes properly rather than moving the offender to new hunting grounds and blamed the victim into keeping quiet.

I’m not taking sides here, merely throwing out ideas…because I’d never think critizing anyone’s religious beliefs…or lack thereof. Because even if you don’t believe, that’s still a religious beliefs….

A comedian said something along these lines…..
“If atheists are so great and smart, why aren’t there atheist hospitals, schools, children & senior citizen homes, charities?”

Possibly it’s because without some sort of formal moral code, people are too preoccupied with themselves to think of others?

That’s not a very convincing argument……..for anything…

It is not a criticism against Judiasm. Would you trust Einsteins opinion about science? Yes, generally, as he is considered an expert. But would you consider him an expert on everything? I mean if we take his word for science shouldn’t we also take his word on religion? Shouldn’t we also therefore also be Jewish?
Lets get rid of the labels and just call him a religious person. Could you expect a religious person to say religion is not needed? Conversely if he was an atheist do you think he would hold religion in such high regard? I doubt it.

In other words it is the same as asking the Pope about something. I would expect he’d know a thing or two about his religion, but I wouldn’t ask him a science question and take his word as gospel… so to speak. 🙂

What would you expect from a Jewish person?

That’s not a very convincing argument……..for anything…

For the record, Einstein said:

“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”

Remove religion, and what reasons ARE THERE for being good?
Tell me, I want to know.

Free will and mutual self-interest, for a start.

There are too many examples of heart-stopping evil and mind-numbing grace in human history for religion to be the sole source of either.

Regardless if you like it or not, we get these beliefs and ethical codes
FROM religion.

And where did religion get them from, if not from within the fundamental nature of humanity? Religions are a human construct, after all, irrespective of the existence (or otherwise) of gods..

To use your own chess analogy, an atheist would still recognise that other people play the game of chess and their reply would be made in that context.

To use my chess analogy if asked their religion athiests say they are athiests… but what they are really saying is they “don’t play”. Replying Athiest to the question what religion do you follow, is not describing atheism as a religion, it is stating they don’t believe in religion.

You apparantly cannot answer the questions. Give me an example of
why people WOULD be nice, and treat others nice without religion?

I can’t tell you why other people obey laws and treat others with respect. I can tell you why I do it. I do it because I consider myself to be a good person. I don’t steal and I try not to lie for my own gain, not because I fear getting caught, but because of how I would feel about myself afterwards. I don’t really care what others think of me… never have. But my own opinion of myself as a person is important to me. I have standards and a code of ethics. It isn’t written down in any book, and although many of my personal rules are very similar to some rules some religions use they are not from any one particular religion. Obviously they are within NZ law as well.

What reasons do we have for being good?

First of all define good.

Give me an example of
why people WOULD be nice, and treat others nice without religion?

A lot of religious people don’t treat others well. Why are you setting such a high standard requirement for Athiests?

Some self-sacrifice, or investment of our own
time or resources can benifit us, evolutionarily speaking, if we help
them to procreate.

Society is not family based. Without a farmer going out everyday producing food, without a truck driver helpiing with the distribution of that food, without the shopkeeper selling you that food, or your boss paying you for the services you provide so you can buy the food, the builder that built your house, the roadmakers that built the roads, electricians that allowed you to have power at home and at work, car makers that help you get to and from work etc etc without all this cooperation society wouldn’t work. To get on in society there are rules. These rules help the society function, but rules are broken all the time… by people who believe in god and also by those that do not. The leader of the local religious party here in New Zealand was recently found guilty of having sexual relations with three girls. Can we blame religion for that? A flawed human organised church system that hid cases of child abuse rather than deal with it properly? Atheists commit crimes too. I really don’t see how religion stops people from being imperfect. Religion just adds a whole lot of extra rules that people “must” live by. Different interpretations of the same religion shows us even someone who follows the same religion as another could be considered sinful because they don’t follow the rules the same way.

What a waste of time.

It’s a behavior found in many mammals, especially social one. One of
the reason for our sucess.

I’d say the seeds of our success were cranium size plus that handy meteorite that wiped out the really big dinosaurs and had pretty much zip to do with any known currently followed religion.

If you will benifit by robbing the
neighbors, what stops you? Fear of the law? Well, that’s as bad as
fearing God.

The law is not a fictional all powerful creation.
BTW who is the better father… the feared father, or the respected father?

Why should we be good, why should we try to love our enemies?
Religion makes that simple: it’s what God wants.

How do you know it is what god wants? Loving your enemies will get you killed in the real world. Enemies don’t want your love. They might want you to actually listen to them. They might even want you to fear them but I doubt they are yearning for your love.

What other justification is there for living a life like that, sacrificing,
helping,etc.

So bow and scrape now, for a better life next time? Yuk.

You’re born, you live, and you die. If you want to break every rule and perform every sin, well go ahead. You live in a society and there will be consequences for your actions… but at least you have lived. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime. There is a possibility you might get away with many things. If you can live with yourself then no one else can tell you how to live.

When your kids ask you “Why?”, what are you going to
tell them? Ifyou don’tjustify your answer, they’re not going to listen.

Hmmm, should I tell them they will go to hell if they don’t… God told me they have to do it and thats why… or the good old standby… because I said so…

Regardless if you like it or not, we get these beliefs and ethical codes
FROM religion. Most of “our” beliefs stem from Judeo-Christian
morals, which are a collection of beliefs starting thousands of years
ago in the mideast, then incorperating some buddist beliefs***
So now you expect to take these beliefs, derived from religion, and
remove it from them? Are you not seeing the difficulties in that? How
are you going to reinforce such beliefs and codes? WHY should we
act in such a way that can often conflict with natural instinct?

You have it the wrong way around. The codes and rules come from society, not religion. And society changes these rules on the fly through peer pressure mostly. What was acceptable in the 1950s on TV is considered fairly boring now. Religion hasn’t changed. Society has. These days the most common sticker you see around a CD store is “content may offend”. Divorce is as easy to get as marriage and the former is becoming a natural consequence of the latter. Children to unwed mothers is not only accepted these days, it is considered normal. The family unit is no longer man, woman, and 1.25 children and can be almost any combination including two men or two women or two men and a woman or two women and a man etc etc.

So now you expect to take these beliefs, derived from religion, and
remove it from them?

That is how the laws in this country were made. Society has started altering them however with new laws on what constitutes marriage or a family. Legal ages for various substances, or to perform acts like marriage or getting into a bar.

What’s going to
motivate someone to NOT want to do something bad, when there is
no God? On what basis will ethics and morals be founded on?
Why should we be good, why should we try to love our enemies?
Religion makes that simple: it’s what God wants.
What other justification is there for living a life like that, sacrificing,
helping,etc. When your kids ask you “Why?”, what are you going to
tell them? Ifyou don’tjustify your answer, they’re not going to listen.

I could give you examples in both present day and in history of how people have lived with high moral values without religion. Its difficult to prove because there are so few countrys (I cant think of any of hand) that dont have religion in their background. I think it would be better to use the bible as an example. The entire new testement basically says (not withstanding the apocolyptical BS at the end) live what you know to be good, and dont try and figure out what is good because you cant. Buddists and Hindus will pretty much give you the same story. So if you want to waste your time trying to figure out gods will, go ahead, I suggest you dont try and force that belief on others, that gets messy.

You apparantly cannot answer the questions. Give me an example of
why people WOULD be nice, and treat others nice without religion?
Remove religion, and what reasons ARE THERE for being good?
Tell me, I want to know.

here’s what I am talking about:

What reasons do we have for being good? Speaking from an
evolutionary standpoint, we will “benifit” by assisting others if they
share genes with us. We are usually predisposed to helping those
related to us, for our kin share genetic material with us. Helping them
live, and helping them pass on their genes helps us keep some of our
own genes going. the closer one is to you , the more you will help –
brothers, children, then cousins and second cousins – all share some
genetic material with us. Some self-sacrifice, or investment of our own
time or resources can benifit us, evolutionarily speaking, if we help
them to procreate.

It’s a behavior found in many mammals, especially social one. One of
the reason for our sucess.

You expand this from families, and then to neighborhoods or town.
People from one town will side with those from another – look at
football, baseball or for God’s sake soccer – you guys really take that
far.

The next step is our state or country. We’ll fight to protect the people
of our state or country.

Expanded further, you have allied nations. All the world wars are an
example of this behavior.

I imagine the only way to bring the world together, completly, is for
aliens to invade.

Realistically speaking, it works in reverse. When confronted by a
decision between yourself and family, and the people next door, you
and your family are more important. If you will benifit by robbing the
neighbors, what stops you? Fear of the law? Well, that’s as bad as
fearing God. Not doing something simply because you don’t want to
get in trouble, not because you don’t want to do it. What’s going to
motivate someone to NOT want to do something bad, when there is
no God? On what basis will ethics and morals be founded on?
Why should we be good, why should we try to love our enemies?
Religion makes that simple: it’s what God wants.
What other justification is there for living a life like that, sacrificing,
helping,etc. When your kids ask you “Why?”, what are you going to
tell them? Ifyou don’tjustify your answer, they’re not going to listen.

And that’s the question I pose.

Regardless if you like it or not, we get these beliefs and ethical codes
FROM religion. Most of “our” beliefs stem from Judeo-Christian
morals, which are a collection of beliefs starting thousands of years
ago in the mideast, then incorperating some buddist beliefs***
So now you expect to take these beliefs, derived from religion, and
remove it from them? Are you not seeing the difficulties in that? How
are you going to reinforce such beliefs and codes? WHY should we
act in such a way that can often conflict with natural instinct?

***(there’ a bit of speculation that Jesus may have traveld to the east
and lived with buddist monks during the “missing years” of the bible.
Buddist scrolls tell of a traveler from the west at the same time period.)

It is not a religious position.

And I maintain that it is, Garry. Is this a debate, or a lecture? 😉

To use your own chess analogy, an atheist would still recognise that other people play the game of chess and their reply would be made in that context.

Similarly, science, without the “crutch” of religious/moral ethics, can do
some pretty nasty things – “exterminate the jews, take over the world,
experiment on children, etc.”

Thats the big fear people have about religion, its usually not fear of god, but a fear in the loss of value for human life. This myth is reinforced when we see religous groups active on right to life abortion issues or read history of secular groups like nazis exterminating the weak and unwanted. Alls I can say is people should get out and see more of the world. Its easy to fall back and think there is an absolute correct way to live, but really religous people are not the ones making decisions about quality of life, its doctors, its parents with a pregnant teens, they deal with the decisions of here and now and all the background issues that lead up to it. The religous people who flout this absolute never have an abortion, never pull the plug, these people are like the pharasis (sp?) of the bible. They dont live in the real world, there is no need for them other than a crutch.

Morals, life-codes, and generally being nice are reinforced by religious
teachings, fear of god, and desire to stay in line with “god’s will”. “IF
there’s a God, I’m going to do as he wishes.”

Yes… do the right think because of a vengeful god.

Sorry, but am I the only one who really thinks that is disgusting?

I mean the idea that the average Joe public is just a pet dog and will only behave with the threat of violence from an omnipotent being?

Don’t do that… you’ll go to hell!

Going to hell for picking your nose? For masturbating? For using a condom?

What happens when you are at war?

Take this bomb and blow them up and you will go straight to heaven.

Even their children are our enemies.

Go to Beslan, go to London, go to a theatre in Moscow, or the Twin Towers in the NY.

Religion is just something else that makes us different. It is just something else to fight over and disagree about. Now don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t much care for a place where everyone is the same and there are no differences between people, but this artificial creation that involves such potential for pain and suffering is not worth it.

If there is no God, what reason do I have to be good?

So the only reason to be good is that you might go to hell?

How pathetic.

that
hardly makes a difference, you can still be a slimebag and follow the
law.

What are you saying? An atheist state is an anarchists paradise?
Many religious people are slimebags and don’t even follow the law.
My sister in law is a devout religious person… dragged my brother to church every sunday. Didn’t stop her committing adultery.

If we were all atheists, imagine how difficult it would be to keep
things civil.

So all the crime in the world is commited by atheists?

Might come as a shock but there are good people and there are bad people and there is no relationship between them other than they are both groups of people. You will find buddists and catholics and athiests in both groups. In fact satan worship is a religion so I would suggest the bad people group contains more religious people than the good people group. In fact if you are good because you fear what god might do to you are you really good, or just selfish?

If there was no reason for person A to not take advantage
of person B, why would they not take advantage of them?

I would say that the vast majority of medicine men and priests and nuns are taking advantage of others. Who else in society could pull of that sort of scam and get away with it for centuries.

Similarly, science, without the “crutch” of religious/moral ethics, can do
some pretty nasty things – “exterminate the jews, take over the world,
experiment on children, etc.”

Where in the bible does it say don’t exterminate Jews or Children for that matter. I would suggest that morals, ethics, and cultural beliefs have very little to do with religions in general and if there is any relationship it would be that religion copies from cuture rather than the other way around most of the time. The exception is when cultures meet and then the religious cultural code of one race is imposed on another. Needless to say that in Africa white mans religions have a lot to answer for.

Both science and religion work best when there is a balance.

BS.
Morals and ethics are important in society, but getting you morals and ethics from any one religion is rediculous and unethical. It was religion that told us that the black man was inferior to the white man. Science told us that there is no such thing as race as such. There are more differences between an old black man and a young black man than there are between an old white man and an old black man. Religion told us the black man was closer to the monkey than the white man. All rubbish.

Almost as funny as the argument against evolution that goes something like “If we evolved from monkeys and apes, how come there are still monkeys and apes?”.

An ignorant question with a simple answer.

theists and atheists alike can offer no empirical evidence to support their beliefs and so must rely on faith.

Faith is belief without proof. Athiesm is no faith because there is no proof.

I did say that atheism was, and remains, a religious position

It is not a religious position. When asked what religion someone is, if they reply atheist, that doesnt’ mean their religious position is atheism. It means they have no religious affiliations with any church or sect or group.

If asked what piece you wanted to play chess as you can say white, black, or I don’t want to play. In this case atheism is “I don’t play that game”.

Isn’t science the study of purely physical phenomena for the purpose of understanding those physical phenomena? In some ways, isn’t that pretty limited in what it can explain and achieve?

There are physical and theoretical sciences. Formal logic is a science, but entirely in the human mind.

Can science give people the internal strength and clarity that at times makes the difference between surviving and perishing in those conditions?

So which religious group is immune to famine? Science in farming has given us a food surplus. Politics, corruption, and weather still lead to food shortages. Distribution and economics could solve such problems but unless you solve the problems of politics and corruption then such problems will continue to occur.

“Scientific” analysis of the creation myths of Australian aboriginals and native North Americans would dismiss them as naive explanations of how land forms were created or how species evolved. But that’s not what those myths are really about. They are often allegorical tales conveying enduring messages.

At the time they led to wise elders being able to give the younger generations answers to questions none of them knew the answers to. In modern times it does give cultural insights into the early people, but it can also be very wasteful too.

In fact living the moral code of most religions would not be always easy, but try creating a working society without those concepts and values.

Many of the codes of conduct were already in force and could be considered common sense. A society with no rules or codes of conduct is not going to progress very far at all. Survival of the fittest works for some animals, but evidence of cripples amongst groups of prehistoric men suggest that even the weak were protected and could perform functions within a group.

Suggesting Religion maintains the moral fibre of a culture is downright silly. Which religion is that?

I think you have to separate the core values of religions themselves from the at times less than human acts of those hiding behind the name of a any particular religion.

Most religions got their core values from existing social rules and expectations. Not the other way around.

Was it Einstein who said, “without religion, science is blind”? Nazi Germany used science to build better ways to murder more Jews, more efficiently. Others use science to create vaccines to save lives. The difference is the moral code of those possessing scientific knowledge.

What would you expect from a Jewish person?

Don’t confuse moral codes with religion. You don’t need religion to have a moral code. Atheists are not all mass murderers and rapists you know. Just like not all (put religion here) are saints.

we need religion , because it give us “sensibility” in the morale-ethical dilemma, only saying “this is good/bad” isnt enough -at least in a society with generations of no-religion –

Why? Can you as an adult not tell what is right or wrong? Do you need to consult a priest or a bible of some sort to work out what the right or wrong thing is?

Morals, life-codes, and generally being nice are reinforced by religious
teachings, fear of god, and desire to stay in line with “god’s will”. “IF
there’s a God, I’m going to do as he wishes.”

If there is no God, what reason do I have to be good? The laws? that
hardly makes a difference, you can still be a slimebag and follow the
law. If we were all atheists, imagine how difficult it would be to keep
things civil. If there was no reason for person A to not take advantage
of person B, why would they not take advantage of them? Why
shoudl we treat others like we wish to be treated? Why should we not
do certain things? How would we justify doing things that are difficult,
yet moral?

Churches can be corrupt, especially when they have so muc say in
politics in theocracies. There is no questioning God, so if you follow
the church, and the CHURCH says “Invade country X”, you invade.
Similarly, science, without the “crutch” of religious/moral ethics, can do
some pretty nasty things – “exterminate the jews, take over the world,
experiment on children, etc.”
Both science and religion work best when there is a balance. They
keep each other in check. I FEEL that those that find a balance
between the two themselves, and do not simply reject one or the other
are better off.

well, the classic “religion or atheism” discussion.

there is a subjetive critic against the religion, with these crusaders and inquisitions….., but what if we compare the increase of power of the human being to destroy itself -like the nukes-, the technology is the responsible???……no, at the end isnt the religion or the tech, is only …..the human being

no matter how many “victories” could the science have against the religion, both deal with very different human aspects, the problem is when one try to deal with the others business :rolleyes:

the religion is organizated by churches, the churche is an common human institution, so the power corrupts it, all the big churches are corrupted, but if you give too much power they turn in monsters

the religion born in our or ignorance??? maybe, but i dont think that is a “ignorance product” the religion is more a social instinct, is part of our humanity, most people when says “religion suck” is because they dont like the churches, but in the end we always want to believe in something

not all in the humans are numbers and equations, actually if we would be so racionalist there wouldnt been technologic advances, the creative thinking is something that sometimes is above the knowledge

we need religion , because it give us “sensibility” in the morale-ethical dilemma, only saying “this is good/bad” isnt enough -at least in a society with generations of no-religion –

atheism is disbelieving god, or gods, but you can be an atheism with religion ,one that dont need gods or superior entities…i guess

nowdays science put limits on the human knowledge, the famous heisenberg uncertainty principle, so in nowdays principles, god could exist….

btw im not religious, i guess that have been 4-5 years in which i have not put a foot in to a catholic church -or any church- (wasnt so many years)

Science is about truth and reality. Religion is about what would be nice. .

Isn’t science the study of purely physical phenomena for the purpose of understanding those physical phenomena? In some ways, isn’t that pretty limited in what it can explain and achieve?

People are starving in Africa from famine. Science can explain why; why crops failed, why human bodies need food, and what caused someone to die. But can science create the moral climate that leads others to help, to save others? Can science give people the internal strength and clarity that at times makes the difference between surviving and perishing in those conditions?

“Scientific” analysis of the creation myths of Australian aboriginals and native North Americans would dismiss them as naive explanations of how land forms were created or how species evolved. But that’s not what those myths are really about. They are often allegorical tales conveying enduring messages.

“Religion is about what would be nice”. Most regions are values systems, moral codes, that reflect and encompass an understanding of “higher” truths and purposes; the ten commandments, the obligation to assist those in need, charity, respect for others and their property, for example. I’d describe the moral and social code inherent in most religions as more than “nice”. In fact living the moral code of most religions would not be always easy, but try creating a working society without those concepts and values.

I think you have to separate the core values of religions themselves from the at times less than human acts of those hiding behind the name of a any particular religion.

Was it Einstein who said, “without religion, science is blind”? Nazi Germany used science to build better ways to murder more Jews, more efficiently. Others use science to create vaccines to save lives. The difference is the moral code of those possessing scientific knowledge.

Athiesm is a rejection of religion and is therefore not a religion itself.

Garry, I’m afraid you’ve made the same mistake as Mixtec.

I didn’t say that atheism was a religion – that would be nonsense.

I did say that atheism was, and remains, a religious position: theists and atheists alike can offer no empirical evidence to support their beliefs and so must rely on faith.

I have seen nothing here so far that has persuaded me otherwise.

Any of the worlds religious
conflicts would be there, just the same, without religion.

So without religion the crusades would have occured anyway?

You have to put a lot of faith in the laws of physics, chemistry and
astronomy to actually believe that the universe can be created, and life
can result without a higher power shaping things.

Yes, physics is all about faith. There is no testing or trial and error in Physics. No logic is required or wanted. You just ask the most important Physist at the time and what they say is basically right. Don’t know how they work out what is truth and what is heresy as they don’t have a god to “ask”. Guess it just must be a random probability matrix.

But don’t try to convince yourself
through science – if you can’t believe it out of faith, don’t dig for clues –
you’ll find none.

Of course you’ll find no proof of religion from science. Science is about truth and reality. Religion is about what would be nice. What would be right or good. Revenge for the weak in an afterlife or in reincarnation. All evils judged and put right. The good rewarded and the bad punnished. Just like a hollywood movie.

Same for atheism. Don’t try to explain it as fact, for it is just as
unprovable as believing in God.

When you have two explainations for things and one requires faith and the other does not, I am pretty sure which one I will believe thank you. Science offers more answers than religion does and its solutions are testable and not from the word of whoever sits on some throne somewhere. Dissent is allowed and encouraged and until irrefutable proof is available there is no burning of those who disagree with the others…

In the absence of certainties, all religious positions are a matter of faith and atheism is every bit as much a religious position as any other belief..

Theology is the study of religion. Athiesm is the antithesis of all religion. A religion is the worship of a greater power, be that one or many gods and deities. Athiesm is a rejection of religion and is therefore not a religion itself.

What difference is there if you believe in modern science to such a
degree, that you believe it to be responsible for all things?

Science is the study of real things. It is not a religion.

These
people saw the sun give life, it gets cold when it’s away. That’s
scientific observation.

Science is not just observation.

A faith in science and the laws
of physics as we understand them.

Science deals with the real world… not faith or trust or belief.

So when no-one hears a tree fall in the forest, it didn’t really fall at all????

I think the femenist version is much funnier… If a man is talking in the middle of a forest and there is no woman there to correct him… is he still wrong.

Such ideas suggest that if an event is not perceieved by a sentient being then it might as well not have happened. This is of course rubbish as all the material that we are made out of was created from hydrogen in stars billions of years ago. What happened back then did matter to us now even if we weren’t there to perceive it happen.
Noise is not a creation of human or other animals senses it is part of the real world and reality.