Boeing Washington B1

Good visit to the “Old Dart”….biz plus Old Warden evening show and North Weald on the Sunday…bit too windy for me…blow a dog off a chain actually…

In Basel, Red Bull B-25 arrived and departed with a low fly-by…immaculate and nostalgic for me..

Public announcement on MOF so hopefully will happen…using Zuccoli collection as the backdrop due o “security concerns” @ OAK.

Hi Oscar

Well what was the result in the UK – show me your shopping bags!!!!

Only joking – it’s your business – how was the UK, I leave on Thursday – perhaps we can meet up sometime.

As for the Army museum – a cynic in me says that you could expect that post election “funding may have to be diverted elsewhere in the defence budget to higher priority tasks” as in the past or some such bull. Hope I am wrong but polies are renown for this especially this lot!!!

Regards
John P

Oz Govt about to make announcment of $2.0M grant to Australian Army Museum of Flying at Oakey Army Air Field in the next few days. Amazing that it takes an election[or as my Thai friends say, an erection] to get the pollies moving…good luck to Army for this as they have lived in a couple of tin sheds forever.

CrazyMainer/Rob,

the two a/c we know of, which were taken into RAF/RAAF service in Australia are:

WW353 44-62049 s/n 11526
Arrived in Australia 23/09/52, A76-1 not taken up. Used by ARDU for Testing/trials. Storage 16/05/56. Struck off 05/09/56. Sold for scrap, 23/10/56. Scrapped Tocumwal 09/57.

WW354 44-61963 s/n 11440
Arrived in Australia 12/12/52, A76-2 not taken up. Used by ARDU for Testing/trials. Struck off 05/09/56. Sold for scrap 18/01/57. Scrapped Edinburgh 10/57.

But other sources suggest a further FOUR USAF service B-29’s were also in Australia assisting in the A Bomb Tests, and its possible Setters bare metal/balck underside piece of wing is from one of those that may have scrapped due to contamination. (The RAAF “Washington’s” were silver doped without black undersides whereas bare metal and balck undersides was very common for USAF B-29s)

In regard to A bomb tests at Woomera etc, Parnell/Boughton “Flypast” page 234 describes the two RAAF “Washingtons” being acquired and allocated along with RAAF Percival Princes and later with RAF Valiants, page 243 describes also at least 4 USAF B29s being involved including 2 tracking the radio active cloud and 2 to take air samples.

So it would be interesting if you can identify those 4 aircraft and their eventual fates? as possible sources of Setters parts here in Oz.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Hi Mark,

I got your hint their :p , I’m going to have to sorce a book in my collections. It list all of the 29s and what happen to them but if I remmeber AVM Parker at least two of are Yank 29s were demend surplus and instead of making the long trip back to the States to just have them scrap they were broken up in Aussie Land.

Give me a day or two to see if I can sorce the book.

Cheers Crazymainer

Off to play with the 17 and 24 Whooooooooo 😀 😀 😀 😮 :diablo:

Point Cook

Setter,

totally agree with your view, many of us have been campaigning for such an outcome for a few years, we are now heading in the right direction, but we do need all Aviation Enthusiasts in Australia to get behind this and forget about state rivalry and make sure our Government follows through on this important National outcome for the sake of future generations, and in honour of past generations: (its hard to believe Australian’s played such an important role in the early trail blazing, Smith Brothers, Hawker, Hinkler, Kingsford Smith/Ulm, Taylor, Mollison, Scott yet those exploits are now unknown to most Australian’s and hardly acknowledged anywhere in our Nation?) We have lost a number of important historic aircraft to export, and while the international “market” is responsible for putting value of such things and causing many to be recovered and restored that would otherwise be still rotting into dust, a Nation should try to retain representative examples and ensure they are preserved and displayed, we cant rely on volunteers to do all this on a shoe string.

http://www.pointcook.info/

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/Baileytpl.cfm?CurrentId=3578

POINT COOK TRUST TO BE ESTABLISHED

Point Cook will be retained in public ownership with the airfield and majority of the land being leased for 49 years to a not-for-profit National Aviation Museum Trust, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence, Fran Bailey announced today.

Today’s announcement coincides with the 90th anniversary of the first flight at Point Cook in a Bristol Boxkite on 1 March 1914.

The National Aviation Museum Trust will

manage the aviation activities on the site for educational, recreational and commercial purposes;

oversee the development of a National Aviation Museum at Point Cook;

preserve the heritage buildings;

ensure the local community and veterans’ organisations are consulted.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence said the Government had decided not to proceed with the sale of Point Cook, following the need to support the RAAF College operations until its relocation and representations made by the veterans community and aviation enthusiasts.

Fran Bailey said the establishment of a Trust will ensure a bright future for Point Cook is matched by its proud history.

“For over 90 years, the Royal Australian Air Force has trained thousands of personnel at Point Cook. These airmenpersonnel fought for Australia’s freedom in two World Wars and have guarded our skies ever since. The establishment of a Trust will ensure a lasting legacy is made to these veterans,” Fran Bailey said.

“Point Cook will have a strong future providing training for aviation students, supporting recreational aviation and tourism. The Trust will also oversee the development of a National Aviation Museum concept in cooperation with the existing RAAF Museum.”

regards

Mark Pilkington

Hi Mark re your “add ”

Please find attached a Post I put on another board about Point Cook when it finally got sorted out a while ago
“I have been involved as an interest in Warbirds for many years and my first experiances date back to 1961 when I visited Bankstown with my father and looked over the collection of Sid Marshall including many historic and signifigant aircraft.

I have followed events over the years with great interest and we should all be proud of what has been achieved here and in New Zealand in the preservation and restoration fields.

For my money the great dissapointment has not been the numbers or types of aircraft or even the numbers of people involved. I have even been anoyed by aircraft types leaving the country such as the Oscar which was the last surviving complete aircraft to have attacked this country ( surely the single most important aircraft to have left our shores). The single most irritating thing about Warbirds and aircraft preservation is the total lack of commitment by the Federal Government to in any real way commit to a national preservation of our aviation heritage. In the UK and the US – even Guetamala there is a National commitment to preserving National aviation heritage and finding sufficent resources to commence and foster ongoing sustainable preservation.

The history of Government funded projects is lamentable starting with the scrapping of many aircraft scheduled for preservation after WW11 and culminating with the NASM debacle of the last decades which resulted in nothing tangable rather than a few political press releases near election time and wasted everybody’s time in the movement.

The recent salvaging of Point Cook wouldn’t have happened if a lot of good people hadn’t stood up and said enough!!

The past is past and now lets move on but I would really hope that the growth potential centered on Point Cook for our movement is really exploited for the good of all and that we can get behind it and support future development there to build the type of facility we should have had all along and one to be proud of as a nation.

The RAAFM is a fantastic basis to work with and build on – they do a great job on what has been very megre resources and their growth potential is vast given the avilability of new airframes to work with. Great initative has recently been shown with their arrangement to restore the P40 in return for surplus Boston Components as well as the great work they have under way on the Mossie etc.

I hope there is also scope at point Cook to work with the vast amount of Civil types of historical significance. We still have a fantastic opportunity to preserve what remains and perhaps even bring back some of whats been lost overseas if we are careful.

I have not intended in this note to propose what should be done but to ask all of you what you think – lets see if we can collectively come up with a series of strategies and put our thoughts to the powers that be.

My thoughts only
What does everyone else think”

Regards
JohnP

Hi Mark

I have pulled out various books and Photos and yes both Australian aircraft were all over silver painted at least when the photos were taken and I imagine that was how they ended their days ………..

apparently they only flew around 150-180 hours so they were pretty “new” when axed and yes one was cut up at Woomera and the other at Tocumwal. I now have photos of both dismemberments.

So my bits are USAF I think – as you say they will be OK for the RAAF just not what I had thought.

Regards
John P

still a good place for it to end up

setter,

I think the black underside and bare metal is looking suspicously like a USAF a/c it would be interesting to get CrazyMainer etc to check the B29 histories for any “written off” or “converted to components” in Australia in the mid/late 1950’s??

even if what you have is a relict of a USAF B29 rather than an RAAF Washington, it would still appear to be strongly associated with Australia’s nuclear test program at Woomera and if so its still an important part of our military aviation history, and Point Cook would still be an appropriate place for it to end up!!

regards

Mark p

wonders if this ad below should be on Barnstormers??

“Wanted” an Australian “Smithonian”!!! or “Duxford”

Large south Pacific banana republic that made an important contribution to the early pioneering Air Transport and trail blazing, and has had a significant ongoing reliance on aviation for defence, travel, communication, tourism, business/freight etc etc etc – seeks a National place to protect, preserve and celebrate its rich Aviation Heritage!!

[I][(Never has a country so big!, owed so much!, to those who flew!”)[/I]

Hi Mark

Thanks for that – no the structure is a hatch with the surrounding metalwork I can’t find any serials or the like – there are just part Numbers which I tried chasing but are generic to the breed apparently – so a real mystery. I think I have a chunk of US aircraft but I will still dig out the piccies just to make sure . Pity I was going to give it to Point Cook as the last chunk of their B29s – By the way the undercarrages of the Woomera scrapping still survive near Mildura on a large farm trailer and no he won’t part with them – I tried.

Regards
John P

Pictures and histories further add to the intrigue??

Setter,

seems at least one of the aircraft is confirmed as being scrapped at Tocumwal – but WW353 not WW354?? as per the ADF serials site: http://www.adf-serials.com/ from RAAF History cards.

and the other is listed as Edinburgh not Woomera but then the paperwork might have been at the nearest RAAF Base while the A/c was still physically at the range??

WW353 44-62049 s/n 11526
Arrived in Australia 23/09/52, A76-1 not taken up. Used by ARDU for Testing/trials. Storage 16/05/56. Struck off 05/09/56. Sold for scrap, 23/10/56. Scrapped Tocumwal 09/57.

WW354 44-61963 s/n 11440
Arrived in Australia 12/12/52, A76-2 not taken up. Used by ARDU for Testing/trials. Struck off 05/09/56. Sold for scrap 18/01/57. Scrapped Edinburgh 10/57.

RAAF Museum website http://www.raafmuseum.com.au/raaf2/html/body_wash.htm

states:
In 1952 the serial A76 was re-allocated to the Boeing B-29 Superfortress, 88 of which were on lo an to the RAF as Washington BIs. The prototype B-29 had first flown on September 21 1942, and during World War II the B-29’s “Enola Gay” and “Bock’s car” dropped the first two atomic bombs on August 6 and 9 1945, which brought about the Japanese surrender on August 14 1945. Two Washingtons, WW 353 and WW 354 were flown to Australia by RAAF aircrews and arrived at ARDU Trials Flight (later ATU) on September 26 1952 and December 12 1952 respectively. They were used on a number of trials for the UKMOS and by 1956 had flown a total of 174 hours in RAAF service. During 1956 the two aircraft were placed in storage pending disposal decisions from the UKMOS and the USAF. The engines were later removed and the Washington airframes were sold for scrap in 1957.

Both RAAF a/c are depicted in pics located at http://users.chariot.net.au/~theburfs/washpage.html

both pics seem to confirm underwings are definately not black on both RAAF A/c (roundels, “WW number” and anti-ice on leading edge clearly seen) and at least one under fuse is definately not black, while the second is “uncertain” because of shadow?

both pics still lead me to consider they are painted silver rather than bare metal, particularly ww353 which is very uniform and unblemished.

adds further suspicion to a USAF B29? wing piece in Setters hands – no makers plate with s/n anywhere on the parts Setter???????

regards

Mark P

WW354 Hurn 1952

Rather than wait, heres one of my Dad’s pics of WW354 at Hurn on 20th October 1952.

I assume it was either doing something with the Navigation school or being modified (Vickers??) prior to its trip o Austrailia in December (iirc).

The other photo is a B29, probably taxing, in the background of shot taken at Hurn in the Autumn of 1952. It might be RAF or USAF and it might have black undersides (you decide).

This is unlikely to be WW353 from the date 3rd Nov 1952; it might be WW354 but if it is its marking have been changed.

BTW, there’s a pic in the AJ Jackson collection of WW354 as A76-2 in flight (airshow in Austrailia) with the same overall pattern as the first shot. Not black under.

From page 187, same source:
“. . . This formation is from 115 Sqn (Marham) in 1950.”

Boeing B-29A Washington

From page 188 of “The History of the Royal Air Force” by John D R Rawlings: “WF443 joined 90 Sqn at Marham in 1950, in whose markings it is shown”.

Hi Mark

Thanks for the very detailed and accurate response.

Somewhere I have a copy of a photo of the Washingtons being scrapped and it does show Black undersurfaces – it may well be that it isn’t an Australian Aircraft at all and that will upset a few historians who have told me otherwise and it does look like Woomera so it’s all very confusing. I will dig out the old books and photos next week and do a little research for us.

Kindest regards
John

Washington

Setter,

as I said I am happy to be corrected 😉 , I have now got off my backside and looked at the quickest piccie I could find :rolleyes: – Pentland – “Aircraft of the RAAF ’21-’71” page 98 shows WW354 at Tocumwal (telltale hangars – over grown versions of the Werribee B24 asbestos hangar & old Chewing Gum Museum hangar).

No indication of “black paint” underwing or under fuse, and while the forward fuse looks silver dope by level of consistancy, the cowls and rear fuse “blemishes” and inconsitancies might well argue the case for bare metal.

RAAF had two a/c assigned under the A76 prefix from 1952-56, WW353 and WW354 both obviously RAF sourced??.

I know one was scrapped at Tocumwal having seen the undercarriage legs etc in the 1970’s/80’s so perhaps that accounts for WW354 above, I assume then WW353 was scrapped at Woomera and your black and bare metal remanants confirms its colour scheme?

I have seen other RAAF pics that I cannot quickly find that still gave me the overall “opinion” of silver paint as per similar RAAF A/c of the same period, but am always happy to be corrected. :confused:

the same Pentland ’21-71 page 98 shows one of the Percival Princes similarly acquired and it too looks like the post war silver paint/dope rather than bare metal??

In regard to A bomb tests at Woomera etc, Parnell/Boughton “Flypast” page 234 describes the two RAAF “Washingtons” being acquired and allocated along with RAAF Percival Princes and later with RAF Valiants, page 243 describes also at least 4 USAF B29s being involved including 2 tracking the radio active cloud and 2 to take air samples.
Also listed as being involved are RAF Canberra’s, RAF Shackletons, RAAF Lincolns in various roles, and as ground blast targets – the well known RAAF Mustrangs and some RAF Supermarine Swifts (I have seen survivor pics of the swifts still existing today)

Interestingly the Wilson book on RAAF “Lincoln, Canberra F111” describes in detail the use of @12 RAAF Lincolns for similar cloud chasing and air sampling with at least 6 becoming so “hot” and “glow in the dark” that they had to be roped off at Amberley and scrapped, (much of what happened at Woomera seems hushed up, especially the stuff ups?) 🙁

I wonder if the RAF/RAAF Washington “WW353” at Woomera was also similarly contaminated?? and scrapped on site, rather than at Tocumwal like WW354, or even more interesting to ponder is if any of the 4 USAF B29’s in cloud chasing/sampling got contaminated like the 6 RAAF Lincolns??
adding further interesting possible sources of your black and bare metal “residue” parts, and the sliver paint/bare metal debate on the RAAF Washingtons (by the way do your “residue” parts “glow in the dark”????) 😎

regards

Mark P

Hi Mark

I have a Chunk of RAAF Washington and it is baremetal and black (flat) undersurface – it came from Womera I believe and was scrapped as the story goes because of “Residues”……….

I put a counter on it but it is not very “active’

Regards
John P

RAAF Washington

IMHO the photos I have seen of the RAAF B29 all look like its painted silver like the post war RAAF meteors and CAC Mustangs etc in service, rather than bare metal like the wartime NA Mustangs in RAAF service? ie poor defined rivet lines and skin edges, and uniform “colour” rather than slight variations of each aluminium panel due to heat treatment, “grain” reflection etc, but I will defer to a more informed “higher authority”

regards

Mark P

A Balrog? “Aragorn…nad no endes!”

Mark

Thanks Everyone

Thanks the replies have been great