Bomb explosion Central Oslo

Edited: CoC Rule 15

Yes, I think when people are calling him a traitor, it’s a defense mechanism on their part; they don’t want to handle the fact that he’s one of “us”. But I don’t want to judge anyone too harshly for using that kind of defense mechanism right now.

Edited: CoC Rule 15

Yes, it must be easier to diagnose the symptoms and search for a cure, but also more painful, isn’t it? I ‘ve heard some Norwegians call him a traitor. In a sense he is. It’s easier to accept as foe an outsider than one of your own. Maybe it’s a different way of looking at things/mentality. In Greece having an outsider would be more acceptable. Having a Greek would be the worst. Maybe because we ‘ve been through a civil war (and regularly fight each other), which was in certain ways more ferocious than against the Germans.

On a side note: Aspis, you mentioned earlier that this tragedy might be harder to handle since Breivik was one of our own. On the contrary, it makes it easier because seeing as this disease+symptom originates in our own society, it’s something we can attempt to treat on our own, with self-reflection and somberness, etc.

Had it been an international operation with perpetrators from abroad, it would’ve been much harder for a small country like Norway to understand/process/handle this kind of event.

T
The quotes I’ve seen from his diary says he travelled to Prague to try to buy an AK-47 and smuggle it to Norway, but he failed to procure one.

Really? This happens when you are North European, living “away” from the “action”. He should have gone to Albania or as second choice, Crete. When Albania around 1990 collapsed and there was a bank scandal with people losing their money and riots, jails were opened and the albanian army depots were looted. Many of the criminals got AK-47 and grenades and passed in Greece. The Cretans, who have a taste for weapons bought a good quantity of AK-47s from them (illegaly of course, as in Greece only smoothbore rifles for hunting are legally sold). But being a Norwegian, he was searching in the wrong place… Better this way…

Aspis. Prague.They must have no gun law at all there, I stand to be corrected here, but don’t you have had to have lived at a certain address in the USA for at least 2 weeks before they will issue a licence, it seems to vary from State to State.
For a first time applicant here in the U.K. it certainly takes far more than a couple of weeks to obtain a Section One Firearms Certificate.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

I’ve got to say that really surprises me; gun legislation in the UK has been considerably tightened following major incidents with legally-held firearms. Handguns (pistols) have been subject to an outright ban for many years.

Those questions will perhaps come later. The political aftermath hasn’t begun yet. For now, the domestic media has very deliberately avoided to blame anything/anyone for this tragedy, except of course Breivik once his identity was revealed. (Side note: not even the domestic tabloids jumped on the AQ angle. I was disappointed in BBC’s initial coverage, in that regard.)

From the PM’s speeches and op-eds in various Norwegian newspapers, I get the impression they (media+political leadership) really want to tackle the sociological roots/reasons of this tragedy, before they move on to questions such as firearms regulations.

On greek tv they said that in his diary, he writes that he was travelling to Prague for buying weapons and he was comfortable there because “it was virtually muslim-free”.

The quotes I’ve seen from his diary says he travelled to Prague to try to buy an AK-47 and smuggle it to Norway, but he failed to procure one.

Only slightly off track, but relevant.
Can anyone state how the granting of Firearms is done in Norway.
Lincoln .7

On greek tv they said that in his diary, he writes that he was travelling to Prague for buying weapons and he was comfortable there because “it was virtually muslim-free”.

C.D. There are mixed opinions on this, and would reqiuire a new thread, So to move on, I, as well as you and others remember Dunblane and Hungerford, and remember seeing Video footage sent to all Forces by those concerned.
Has the ban been of any use?. personaly I think the majority have suffered for a long time for the minority.
If it’s true what the Met say, there has hardly been a lot of change in driveby shootings etc, if you want a weapon, money will get you virtualy any weapon you want,The Oozies seem to be the choice at the moment.
Back on topic, I would bet a pound to a pinch of the proverbial Norway is even now considering re inventing it’s ledgislation regarding Gun Law. Unfortunately,and seemingly now a bit late.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

No, there hasn’t been any such talk at all.

I’ve got to say that really surprises me; gun legislation in the UK has been considerably tightened following major incidents with legally-held firearms. Handguns (pistols) have been subject to an outright ban for many years.

@aspis
I also wondered if he was proved sane would that give the wrong idea to others?.
Whatever happens I pray he will never be released I also hope and pray that he suffers for what he has done.

Ι am of the opposite opinion. Tagging him simply “crazy”, doesn’t deal with the fact that he proposes an ideological platfom (and terrorism) for a real issue that is becoming more and more present in western societies. I will try this example: Is it enough to say to a young teenager that all he needs to know about Hitler’s national-socialism agenda is that “Hitler was crazy, forget about him”? I think not. Because, like it or not, the problem for which he proposes his manifesto for is real. And there are many hot headed youngsters out there that seek their own answers and doubt everything. You need to dismantle his theory with arguments and talk about the problem and propose solutions, not just say “he’s crazy, so we ignore him”.

To give an example, even in Greece, there are, few, but still, existing neoNazis. Which is uncomprehensible how this can happen in a country that has had tens of thousands that died from starvation alone in WWII, yet, they exist. Why they exist? IMHO, because there are situations that in some group of persons who are marginalized, national socialism apparently appears giving some solutions, combined with a lack of history teaching (ironically it’s the left in Greece, that in a “modern” thinking is trying to de-nationalise anything in greek schools) and a general lack of interest to talk seriously from the media or family about it, because it ends up with a “crazy man that rolled in blood Europe” or in the media with “sick neonazis”. Yes, they are sick, but you must explain why their preaching is flawed, so that they won’t recruit some more. A teenager today doesn’t have the memories of the elder. If he doesn’t have proper teaching at school and nobody else to explain with arguments why that crazy man wasn’t a good solution to anything, he may fall prey to brainwashing by propaganda.

Nowdays with the youth being on the internet every day and having easy access to everything, is it really enough to say “he is insane” and forget about it? And if they are more, then what? “Oh, insane too, ignore them”?

I hope too he stays for life in jail… I am not in favour of death penalty for such cases. Death ends it quickly. He must endure the rest of his life in prison.

P.S.: The greek tv a while ago said that the greek antiterrorist service is taking seriously his allegation about having a greek delegate in his “foundation day” in London and has requested from the Norwegian authorities any data from his PC or interrogation that could regard Greece, as they want to see if they can ID who this greek delegate was. I am a bit surprised by the swift response of our police, but pleasantly so.

P.S2: COC 15 apparently doesn’t apply on this thread, so i used quotes.

This has to be Norways policy surly, I don’t think in a thousand years the Firearms Department of any U.K. Police Force would sanction that many, whatever the caliber.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

Oh yes, it is – I should have specified.

Have there been any calls for a ban on legally-held handguns in Norway yet?

No, there hasn’t been any such talk at all.

From what we know, he legally owned a Glock 17 and a semi-auto Mini-14. Regarding amounts of ammunition – you can legally keep 10-15’000 rounds, depending on calibre.

Have there been any calls for a ban on legally-held handguns in Norway yet?

Regarding amounts of ammunition – you can legally keep 10-15’000 rounds, depending on calibre.

This has to be Norways policy surly, I don’t think in a thousand years the Firearms Department of any U.K. Police Force would sanction that many, whatever the caliber.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

Sh. Pete, Most of what is here is relevant, I went slightly astray, as being an X F/Arms Officer, I wanted to know the rules and regs relating to F/Arms, it;s like a jigsaw puzzle, and we have put quite a bit together by pooling what bits and bobs we know.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

Little I have read since my earlier post encourages me to spend anymore time here.:(

Police haven’t released any info on weapons in his possession upon his capture.

From what we know, he legally owned a Glock 17 and a semi-auto Mini-14. Latter can be purchased for deer hunting purposes.
(Requires purchaser to file a purchase request with the police – takes a while to process – typically only approved for well-seasoned hunters.)
Magazine size over 5 illegal, but hard to enforce.

Regarding amounts of ammunition – you can legally keep 10-15’000 rounds, depending on calibre.

Hi. Lindermyer. You could hold as many S/G Cartridges as you wanted,(Upon approval by F/Arms dept) I was talking about a Section 1 Firearm, that he was using,and the ammunition he had amassed, or was he using a S/Gun?.

Jim.

Lincoln .7

Im not sure how many rounds he fired or had available, but if we assume 200 thats not that difficult or suspicious to amass, in days gone by I reguarly held upwards of a hundred rounds for the shot gun sometimes up to *200 (only 8 boxes at 25 a box)

* Due to a selection of load types for different targets eg Clays, rabbits and Geese
Not because I thought The russians/martians/Machines or Living dead wrere coming.

Only slightly off track, but relevant.
Can anyone state how the granting of Firearms is done in Norway.It’s a hell of a job here since Dunblane, and being a Firearms Officer when on the job, one of the things one had to check was the amount of ammunition the F/A holder had used since his last renewal. if it were not much, then he could have had his/her Certificate revolked.
The reason I ask this, is that this chap must have stockpiled a huge amount of ammunition prior to going on his deadly shooting spree, which begs the question,HOW?.
But not being aware of how certificates are granted, I cannot comment.
It may well be they have a sort of USAs 2nd Amendment.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

You have hung drawn and quartered a man before his trial by attributing a named person with the crimes he hasn’t yet been tried for and as yet we don’t know if he is alone for both massacres (easy to prove with forensics) and bombings (harder to exclude others).
How fair is this?

I beg your pardon?

The man has admitted to both crimes, there is film of him pointing a weapon at people and killing them at point blank range. He was apprehended without a struggle by Norwegian Police in posession of firearms. There are numerous witnesses to the shootings, at least one of whom was shot by him at close range. Are you trying to suggest that he is, by some unforeseen circumstance, innocent of the Utoeya shootings?

At no point in any of this thread have I suggested that he should be hung, drawn or quartered. Alone or otherwise, he is guilty of the shootings on the island. I would suggest that is now incontrovertible. Even his defence team are saying he is guilty.

At times, your arguments make little or no sense whatsoever. And why you keep bringing up the LTTE is a mystery (or not) as it has been clear from very early on in this thread that it was Breivik acting either with or without accomplices and not the act of any recognisable terrorist organisation.

Regards,

kev35