Boy, this will cause me a lot of problems …

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

Oh, please.

It is illegal to deny the holocaust but it is perfectly legal to deny the tens of millions of deaths ordered by Stalin.

Utter hypocrisy. It is the fault of Belgian and UK politicians certainly, but I would expect even a hardline Jew to admit that Stalin was as bad as Hitler.

On a different note, the issue of saying that bin Laden cannot be negotiated with just because he uses terror to achieve his aims.

Well, I said a similar thing about Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness a few years ago. And I was wrong; we talked and by and large, the violence from the IRA was significantly reduced.

The point was made that Islamic and “European” terrorism is totally different and the tactics are also totally different.

I don’t see how.

In any terror organisation, you will find a small caucasus of hardliners headed by Mr. Big.

Between them, they whip up hatred and desire to act, amongst populations.

The ONLY way to beat this is by removing the root cause of animosity felt towards you. Chopping the head off gets you a temporary reprieve at best.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-06-02 AT 12:29 PM (GMT)]Skythe, you’re right, I’m sorry. Hey, now you also found the solution to Israel’s problems! You should run for PM! I think we should thank many of our European friends for finally showing us the light!

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

Yeah, and not without a reason of course.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

Yeah, but burning down synagoges also happens in US, it’s bad. But in Belgium – like in any other democratic country – freedom of speach is still respected. The holocaust-denial-law is the only such law I can remember which really is so severe.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

We are well aware of those facts, including the illegality of Nazi literature all over Europe. But what do you expect? I can imagine the headlines : “Synagogue burned down in Belgium today, the Belgium government is doing close to nothing, but that’s OK because you can’t find Mein Kampf in bookstores.”

“whining on Belgium’s anti-semitism”
Why can’t those pesky Jews just shut up and take what they’re given? At least we don’t attempt to put your leaders on trial.

“as it is still legal to write or say that it was a good thing gipsy’s, the gay’s etc were also slaughtered by Hitler, but don’t say anything about the Jews “
The fact that those are legal are your shortcomings, don’t dump them on us.

—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

>
>1. It became illegal to deny the holocaust
>2. Mein Kampf was nearly banned

In Flanders, it is illegal to even think that the holocaust might be a bit exaggerated. Mein Kampf has been banned from public library or any other insitution. Our minister of cultural affairs, though a Flemmish nationalist, has demanded all books which contained opinions on holocaust-denial, to be removed from the market. Why doesn’t Israel write that down in their newspapers, instead of always whining on Belgium’s anti-semitism? This is however, not fair/democratic, as it is still legal to write or say that it was a good thing gipsy’s, the gay’s etc were also slaughtered by Hitler, but don’t say anything about the Jews …

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

Really JJ, you’re not looking into the core of the issue. Bin Laden was obviously traumatized by the evil Americans, it’s not his fault, he was desperate, he had no other choice, terrorism is the only weapon he’s got! I suggest we all rally our respective nations to set up an economic delegation to go and give him some better hope for the future. Hunting him will not solve the problem, we would fare much better by trying to appease, oops, I mean “engage in meaningfull dialogue”, with the man.

—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

Sure, Hitler is not the same as Bin Laden. Bin Laden doesn’t rule a country (anymore). But that is irrelevant. What matters is that both not ready to compromise, both kill out of ideology, and both are willing to sacrifice human lives to achieve their goals. Appeasement will only buy them time to prepare, and become stronger and stronger. It is not going to work.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

I am more inclined to agree with geforce in this discussion. The Republicans are going to milk the situation to their advantage all the way. Creating an “evil” enemy and fear of what he will do if you dont fight him is the best way to get people to rally around you.

I dont believe that the vast majority of Muslims support these jihadis, but beating these war drums only make them seem like martyrs and fighters for Islam. This will only end when the vast majority of muslims themselves stop these jihadis. That will only happen if the west stops getting paranoid and proves to the Muslims that they are fair arbitraters and do not have double standards.

One example of US double standards which really pisses us off in India is Americas dealings with one of the biggest terrorist states in the world, which is now an “ally” of the US in this war on terror. It gets foreign aid in billions and its dictator is hailed as a courageous man. WHY ???? Because this country makes a pact with America that we will help you destroy those terroists who kill you, but you must turn a blind eye on our terrorist acts on our neighbour.

Such short term policies and double standards create suicide bombers. You can bomb Afghanistan all you want, but these terror attacks will continue as these people see their cause as being just. Remove the root cause of terrorism ie be fair to all sides and perhaps u will see peace.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-06-02 AT 06:42 AM (GMT)]Dear GeForce,

you did get me completely wrong. I did not mean that anyone in Germany or Europe must actually fear to be killed by a terrorist attack to a level like Israelis or Indians must. But that does not mean we do not have to be carefull and have to fight the terrorists before they are able to be a serious threat. Would you start to fight, only if you personally are in danger ?? That is the wrong way. After 9/11 it is obvious that there is threat that commints babaric attacks against civilian people. And after knowing that some of the 9/11 attackers lived in Germany for some years, it is more then reasonable to assume, that there is El Qaida activity here in germany. And then if you look at arrests made by the european police forces, you should be seeing clearly that europe is no save place. Here a small list for you :

– Italy : planned attack on water supply in Rome (using poison)
– Germany : planned attack on a christmas season market
– Spain : attack on shopping center planned
– French : bombing material found, target not known

At the moment europe is still something like a base area for terrorist attacks against jewish or US instalations, but this includes jewish buildings in europe, US firm headquartes, etc. And the people killed will mostly be europeans. So you would say europe is not the target. And other targets could be attacked as well.

I sometimes feel that you think like, oh well they attacked the US or Israel – well that is ok. We here in europe are not in danger then.

That is the same fault the western states did before WW2. The germans are rearming, but we still have more arms so it is no threat to us.

They invaded the Rheinland. Oh ok it is their land after all and when we give it to them they will not attack us.

They are comiting crimes against the germans Jews. No problem with that, the Jews hav done many bad things and it is an internal problem.

They united with Austria. No problem they are more or less the same anyway.

They invaded Czecheslowakia, ok we let them, as long as it is not us that are invaded.

We all know what happened in the end. Everyone should have learnt that against a determined foe there is nothing but decisive action. Appeasement will not work.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

I don’t think there are many parallels between Czechoslovakia and the current “war”.

Appeasement didn’t work in that case; but that doesn’t mean it never will. The agressor then was Hitler; he is not of the same mettle as bin Laden or any other terrorist leaders.

My concern is that the Americans disagree with you and I, JJ.

They give the impression that war is great fun. It’s all a laugh. War should not be glamourised.

Also, coming back to the Saudi thread.

Exactly what right does any nation have to interfere in internal Saudi politics? The human rights records is poor, but that is an issue for SA. Not Europe, and not the US.

I mean, the US aint perfect in terms of human rights. Nor is Europe. We shouldn’t cast stones when we live in glass houses!

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

The point is that appeasement doesn’t save lives. Did appeasing Germany with Czechslovakia save lives? No, on the contrary. Had the politicians had the guts to stop Hitler then, it wouldn’t have cost as many lives as did WWII. Of course, this is with 20/20 hindsight, but one must learn from history, right? It doesn’t mean I like war, on the contrary. But sometimes, there are no other options left.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

JJ, surely you beleive in freedom of speech?

People can say what they want and they are free to do so. Now you mention it, the only real instances of denial of free speach relate to Nazism.

Two things happened in the UK a few years ago:

1. It became illegal to deny the holocaust
2. Mein Kampf was nearly banned

OK, only an idiot would deny the holocaust and Mein Kampf is not pleasant reading.

But, it goes right against the principle of free speech.

As an addition, I find the “war is good vs evil” argument to be vulgar in the extreme.

There is an old and cliched expression which I beleive sums up the reality very well:

WAR IS HELL

War in itself is evil. We must only go to war as a last resort, and we also must accept why war is hell. People do monstrous things, on all sides.

I don’t know if you noticed, but usually the people who least want to fight are the Generals; it is usually politicians who are eager for a few votes. It is illuminating that Colin Powell, the most “peaceful” senior American, is a former General.

Geforce was accused of appeasement.

If this saves lives, what can possibly be your objection to it?

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

One word: appeasement.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

I’m sorry Geforce, but war is all about black and white. You can’t fight an enemy and say: well, he’s not so bad, and we’re not that good people either. That is not gonna work.

But it might help if you choose you analogies more carefull. I did read your entire post, and it didn’t make sense to me at all. The entire Western world should be alert for terrorism. Muslim extremists made it very clear that they want to destroy the entire western world, but that they would start with the US and the Jews. But the entire Western world is in danger. Perhaps not in acute danger, but it is. Just the other day there was a story in a news program, called NOVA, about what some imams preach in the Netherlands. Shocking, to say the least. They detest Western society, they want Westerners to either be converted to Islam, or to be killed. And that, Geforce, is dangerous. It would really help if the EU, and European countries would start to understand that.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 18-06-02 AT 06:40 PM (GMT)]Com’on Sauron, what was the real danger until 1939, when Germany invaded Poland? Communism. France and UK wanted to use Germany and Italy so they could defeat communism, which was THE bad guy back then. And they did so, almost. If nazism would have been pure evil in the eyes of the French, British and American leaders, do you think they would let Germany re-arms itself, occupy parts of the Rhein-land, anschluss of Austria, Czechia etc????? It’s only after Germany invaded Poland the ‘allies’ took actions (even than it took more than a year), but it was already too late. Germany invaded France and you know the end of the story … Saying that European leaders were to stupid to see the danger coming is not true, they wanted to take this opportunity to get rid of the other, more dangerous evil: COMMUNISM.

And therefor so many people – even after Germany invaded France, Holland and Belgium – were convinced the Russians were still the only enemy and thus fought alongside with the waffenSS on the east-front. This has nothing to do with stupidity, collaboration, it’s just simple technics of manipulation.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

Geforce

Only you could suggest that Europeans were to stupid to know what the issues were during the lead up to and during WWII. Your insights as expressed here will no doubt clear it up for them.

Regards

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 18-06-02 AT 06:32 PM (GMT)]>So actually Al Qaida are the good guys now? And no muslim
>extremists perpetrate horrific acts of violence. Hmm,
>interesting view.

Again ripping out of context what I’ve meant. Why don’t you read my whole post and not simply one sentence on which you can reply with such a poor answer like “now you’re saying Al Qaida are the good guys?”. What I meant – which you all know cause you are all intelligent people I asume – is that getting all of your people behind one ‘evil’ is not a good thing. It creates instability, not immediatelly, but after a longer period. The Germans were not the good guys, and they weren’t always the bad either. War you can not simplify by saying it is good or bad/Yin and Yang. You can say : gee this sandwich tastes bad (In fact not, because others might like it). A leader who makes his own people afraid is a bad leader, that’s all what I meant.

If you read all of it, you would also have seen that I said 911 was barbaric, not more or not less than dropping napalm over Vietnamese villages full of civilians, or looking at my own nation’s history (it’s not always the Americans), using millions of people as slaves of our beloved King.

And Seahawk, which nations are suffering the most from terrorism. The West? Unlikely, nations like Columbia (FARC), India, Israel (ok is a country from the west), Sri Lanka, these are the ones that can say that live under the daily threat of terrorism. It’s bad what happened to those German tourists in Tunesia, there’s no doubt about that. But to say as a German you should be afraid to go out on the streets, that’s exaggerated. And that’s exactly what Bush (and so many with him) like us to believe. That it is unsafe to go out. Hell no, on a nice evening like this, I can go outside, do whatever I want, and the only bad thing that can happen to me is that 10-ton truck will drive over me :D. The feeling of unsafety is such a cheap propaganda, this is how extreme right wins so many votes.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

So actually Al Qaida are the good guys now? And no muslim extremists perpetrate horrific acts of violence. Hmm, interesting view.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

The EU has just announced that it will put the “Front of free palestina” and “Al Aqsa” on its list of terror organisations, a big step if you know that ARAFAT has close relations with these mouvements. On the other hand, the EU also made a biliteral trade deal with Iran.

The problem is that many European countries (both gov’ts and people) are confronted daily with Bush’s stupid speeches, controversial statements … For the French this is of no problem, they will pretend like they heard nothing, but for the Brits who are so closely related to the Americans, this is a big concern.

The fight against terror and the “coalition of good vs evil” reminds me of the 1930’s in Europe, when so many political parties (not only the Nazi’s, but also small mouvements like VNV, Rexists) could convince people to fight a holy war against bolsjevism. This new evil aka Islam terror resembles a lot to bolsjevism in means that it was hated and feared by the big public. Many people fighting with the Nazi’s only found out after the war that it was the Nazi’s who were the pure evil.