Children Stolen in Haiti

1. In the case of Haiti, you have to observe and follow the Haitian system. Orphanages in Haiti are not solely occupied by orphans. Children are sometimes left their in care until the circumstances of the parents improve. If you’d bothered to do any research you would have found this out for yourself.

I think I’ve consistently said that if they’re not really orphans, I’m not in favor of their being adopted… I don’t know why you included that last statement.

3. Ergo, you can’t be in support of US involvement either?

Exactly. I’m not sure I do. I personally think that the priority should be this if the parents are dead:
1. Relatives
2. Distant relatives
3. Responsible people who have a decent background (maybe that’s where governments have legitimate reason to charge for processing fees and background checks…
4. Organizations (this might should come before #3 because it may be a middle or temporary status as well)

4. The circumstances are truly desperate. It is difficult to see how they could be more desperate. But is the wholesale removal of orphaned Haitian children onto the American adoption market, really in the best interests of the people of Haiti, the children of Haiti or the future of Haiti?

If they are placed in good homes, either in the US, or the UK, or anywhere else where loving parents are willing to sacrificially take care of them, yes.

Also, again, in response to the religious charges and the Catholic church – abuse DOES occur, but then it does in other settings as well, and can easily happen in the current circumstances, too.

or if you’d care to choose someone else whose truth meter wasn’t working we could always counjure up your Texan neighbour George W Bush

That’s unfair. I already mentioned him if you read carefully… (obliquely in post #21)

On the “buying” of children issue, I’ll try one more time to make my position clear. I don’t think you are thinking about it right, or trying to understand what I am saying.
Governments have systems in place that charge money for the privilege of being their caretakers. No one benefits from the transaction financially except for the government and lawyers. Also, here in the US, that child is protected by various laws and is a free citizen as soon as it reaches legal age just like any other child. I don’t think you’ll find most of those adoptees working in sweatshops or doing anything any other child would be doing. The adoptees I know are just like the other kids. They get fed regular meals, go on outings with their parents, get toys and presents, have birthday parties, and are given free education or sometimes are even put into private schools for steep sums of money. Because the parents want them for slaves? Not the ones I know of. I just don’t believe that they are “buying” the child. They are “paying their dues” in order to have the privilege of raising them.
Orphanages take care of orphanages as well, sometimes for government money, sometimes because people donate their time and money. The alternative is these poor kids wandering around on the streets or worse, and in a situation like the current one, may end up with deaths due to starvation, neglect, or abuse, or with little thieves who learn to steal just to survive. Either someone takes care of these kids, or we all end up taking care of them because of taxes. I for one think the private system is superior and will produce superior individuals on the other end of the process.

Ryan

J Boyle.

Can you explain something here for me please? In an earlier post you wrote….

For many, it’s perhaps easier to adopt a non-US child (from what I hear, there aren’t that many U.S. children to adopt in poart because some authorities frown on couples adopting children not of their race).

Yet in your last post you comment on news stories whereby Haitian children are already being adopted in the aftermath of the earthquake. How can the two opposing views expressed there be reconciled?

Regards,

kev35

I can’t, nor won’t, disagree with that. However, it is a system which is massively open to abuse. Operation Pedro Pan being a case in point where some reports suggest that through the altruism of the Catholic Church some 8,000 of the 14,000 children brought from Cuba found themselves as unwanted extras in foster homes, as inmates of detention centres for juvenile delinquents or in children’s homes. Some of these reports suggest many of these children became victims of physical, emotional and sexual abuse and in many cases victims of a combination of all three.

Regards,

kev35

Granted….bad stuff happens. Always has, always will.
But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Don’t assume all faith-based adoptions are going to be bad.
And I’m not advocating stripping children from parents because they’re poor.

Since the earthquake, there have been several local news stories about local families who have adopted Haitian orphans.
These familes are going the kids a huge favor.

This may be hard to believe in our cynical age, but some people are just nice and want to help some very needy children.

I can’t, nor won’t, disagree with that. However, it is a system which is massively open to abuse. Operation Pedro Pan being a case in point where some reports suggest that through the altruism of the Catholic Church some 8,000 of the 14,000 children brought from Cuba found themselves as unwanted extras in foster homes, as inmates of detention centres for juvenile delinquents or in children’s homes. Some of these reports suggest many of these children became victims of physical, emotional and sexual abuse and in many cases victims of a combination of all three.

Regards,

kev35

…. saying it’s cheaper than adopting an American child. Whose moral compass should we be keeping an eye on?
kev35

I don’t think anyone has said that.
For many, it’s perhaps easier to adopt a non-US child (from what I hear, there aren’t that many U.S. children to adopt in poart because some authorities frown on couples adopting children not of their race).

I think people do it to help the child and give it a much better life than it would otherwise have.

Quick quiz: If you were an unwanted Chinese child, a Romanian or Haitian orphan would you rather grow up in an orphanage or with an American family who really wanted you?

With China’s “one child” program…any volunteers to be a disabled boy in an Chinese orphanage?

Let’s face it, there are millions of people who would like nothing more to come to the U.S.
These families are giving these children a chance for a very good life.
Obviously not as good as I’m sure some of you think your homeland’s could provide:rolleyes:

This may be hard to believe in our cynical age, but some people are just nice and want to help some very needy children.

Of the three families who I know have adopted children from China, only one regularly attends church.

So much for that stereotype.

I think the stereotyping is spot on so far.

Ok, so lets turn this debate a bit.

1. How do we establish what constitute legitimate orphans?
2. Who should be allowed to take care of them?
3. Should oustide entities like the UN, or even another country be allowed to help in cases of dire need?
4. If we assume that there are truly desperate circumstances and that staying put is not a really viable option, what is a fair way to help real orphans?

I do not believe that all adopted orphans are BOUGHT or are in the least way slaves. That is a false premise in my opinion. I know too many happy orphans and grown up, responsible adults who were adopted to buy it.

Ryan

1. In the case of Haiti, you have to observe and follow the Haitian system. Orphanages in Haiti are not solely occupied by orphans. Children are sometimes left their in care until the circumstances of the parents improve. If you’d bothered to do any research you would have found this out for yourself.

2. The Haitian authorities and anyone deemed competent to do so in their stead.

3. Answer the question yourself. You have already stated you have no time for UN organisiations, which incidentally the United States subscribes to. Ergo, you can’t be in support of US involvement either?

4. The circumstances are truly desperate. It is difficult to see how they could be more desperate. But is the wholesale removal of orphaned Haitian children onto the American adoption market, really in the best interests of the people of Haiti, the children of Haiti or the future of Haiti?

Regards,

kev35

Ryan.

This is just getting tedious.

I have my own moral code based on the way I was brought up and using any elements of any belief system I choose or choose not to buy into.

Your incoherent ramblings about Adolf Hitler or Stalin (or if you’d care to choose someone else whose truth meter wasn’t working we could always counjure up your Texan neighbour George W Bush) bring nothing to the debate about the illegal removal of children, some of whom are not orphans, from Haiti. You are the one trying to justify the wholesale removal of children from Haiti and justifying that by saying it’s cheaper than adopting an American child. Whose moral compass should we be keeping an eye on?

I have not commented at all on whether I care or not about the orphans of Haiti. You just make assumptions. I care enough to know that your advocation of the buying of children from Haiti or elsewhere is morally and reprehensibly wrong, whoever’s moral code you care to call on.

It’s you who placed a monetary value on a child’s life. No-one else.

Regards,

kev35

Ok, so lets turn this debate a bit.

1. How do we establish what constitute legitimate orphans?
2. Who should be allowed to take care of them?
3. Should oustide entities like the UN, or even another country be allowed to help in cases of dire need?
4. If we assume that there are truly desperate circumstances and that staying put is not a really viable option, what is a fair way to help real orphans?

I do not believe that all adopted orphans are BOUGHT or are in the least way slaves. That is a false premise in my opinion. I know too many happy orphans and grown up, responsible adults who were adopted to buy it.

Ryan

Well they should have got a bit knocked off for the one with a birth defect,
btw how much did your church put towards these prices, no let me guess nothing:mad:

Of the three families who I know have adopted children from China, only one regularly attends church.

So much for that stereotype.

Ryan.

I’ve told you I will not enter into debate via PM. Anything I have to say to you I will say (and stand by) in the open.

I suggest you go back and read the thread carefully and then perhaps you will realise that it was not me who mentioned slavery.

If you, and your friends now under arrest, want to help the people of Haiti, then donate all the money you can to them rather than trying to buy children, who, for better or worse, represent the future of Haiti.

Regards,

kev35

Nice… Real nice. And I wasn’t trying to debate you via PM… You still haven’t had the courtesy or backbone to answer honest questions I’ve asked. I’m not ashamed of ANYTHING I have to say, just not trying to start a war with others who haven’t yet entered the debate out of respect for the mods and forum rules. My apologies on the slavery comment, you were right. It was GA that said that.
On the donation thing, how much have you donated if you care so much? The group I sent you the link about went in with medical supplies and more and with doctors and trained medical personnel to help those staying in country. Again, I disagree with trafficking, but if there are real orphans, then people who have compassion will try to help. I’m not such a nationalist that I feel that any border is a big deal. If I need help, I’ll take it from China, or the UK, or wherever people actually care.
Oh, and for the record, as far as I know, my personal friends are NOT under arrest and they don’t do anything illegal…

Ryan

Parenthood is indeed a privilege which the vast majority manage to achieve without much thought.
I can understand your point of view.
However I would also like to point out that it’s more or less impossible to appreciate the misery that being unable to have children causes unless you’ve experienced it personally.
If an orphaned child can become part of a loving family by money changing hands,then I won’t condemn that.

Ryan.

I’ve told you I will not enter into debate via PM. Anything I have to say to you I will say (and stand by) in the open.

I suggest you go back and read the thread carefully and then perhaps you will realise that it was not me who mentioned slavery.

If you, and your friends now under arrest, want to help the people of Haiti, then donate all the money you can to them rather than trying to buy children, who, for better or worse, represent the future of Haiti.

Regards,

kev35

Paying for children from another country does seem very much like selling human beings,but please don’t condemn absolutely those who choose to do so.

It seems very much like selling human beings because that’s exactly what it is.

Children are not a commodity to be traded and there is no excuse for treating them as if they were. None whatsoever.

As I’m sure you would agree, parenthood is a privilege not a consumer choice.

Have any of you gentlemen stopped to consider the reasons why people adopt children ?
I can tell you from personal experience that if you’re desperate for a child you would give every penny that you own to hold a child of your own in your arms.
Paying for children from another country does seem very much like selling human beings,but please don’t condemn absolutely those who choose to do so.Changing attitudes mean that fewer children are given up for adoption now than was the case years ago.
I was lucky, I managed to produce a child of my own at last at the age of forty,but all those years when I was trying to do something that most other women could do with ease and next door’s cat could do with its eyes shut gave me a very different view of the world.

Ryan, calm down please.

You’re making less and less sense the more irate you get, and it doesn’t help you to get your point across. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Thanks,

GA

LOL! I beg to differ but Wilco. Wish I had some blue skies today and was out flying with students instead of worrying about folks misconstruing my friends’ work.

Ryan

Moderator Message

Ryan, calm down please.

You’re making less and less sense the more irate you get, and it doesn’t help you to get your point across. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Thanks,

GA

Ryan, we can go on and on forever like this and neither of us will convinve the other that we are wrong, yet still you perpetuate the argument.

So you don’t like the book. I understand, you obviously dislike it.

It’s not about liking or disliking any book of your or my choosing. It’s the simple fact that I, unlike your good self, have no need of it.

So I ask again, how do you define what’s right? Based on your own internal “truth meter?” I actually think you’re on to something*, and am not saying that perhaps you don’t have a generally good sense of what is right,

That’s nice. Who are you to stand in judgment of me? A man who uses bits of the Bible to suit any occasion he chooses. And yes, I would rather stand by my own moral compass which didn’t come free with a copy of any Religious tract.

Are you prepared to judge people you don’t know, in situations you don’t have first hand-knowledge of, just because?

What a peculiar thing to say. Especially as you are quite content to judge me.

Is it OK for someone else because he doesn’t feel the same way about it that you do?

Again, an odd thing for you to say when you clearly have no interest in anyone’s opinion but your own.

This is all pointless because at the end of the day you cannot explain on what grounds you think it is right to buy and sell children, however you try to sugar coat it.

Regards,

kev35

Regards,

kev35

Kids for $5000?
I know several people who have adopted Chinese girls (and one Chinese boy with a birth defect)…they all had to pay $20-25,000 for them.

Well they should have got a bit knocked off for the one with a birth defect,
btw how much did your church put towards these prices, no let me guess nothing:mad:

I know right from wrong without having to resort to a book. I know how to do the right thing without being told. I know the meaning of care and compassion without the expectation of reward in an afterlife.

So you don’t like the book. I understand, you obviously dislike it.
So I ask again, how do you define what’s right? Based on your own internal “truth meter?” I actually think you’re on to something*, and am not saying that perhaps you don’t have a generally good sense of what is right, but what about someone like an Adolph Hitler or Stalin who apparently doesn’t have his “truth meter” working and thinks it’s OK to commit mass murder? On what basis do you condemn a slave owner? On what basis do you prosecute them? I actually can say that it’s not MY rules, but a higher law that says that man-stealing is a capitol crime (yes, I believe that), but taking care of orphans is OK. Where do we draw the line between those two? Are you prepared to judge people you don’t know, in situations you don’t have first hand-knowledge of, just because? Do you really believe everything the media tells you? Was my (ugh – I wish he wasn’t) fellow Texan right when he said that they had proof of WMD’s in Iraq, or whatever other media story you want to insert?
Is it OK for someone else because he doesn’t feel the same way about it that you do? Is what you believe to be right or wrong the ultimate authority for me? If I believe I’m doing right to help those who are weaker around me and share my wealth or my home voluntarily, rather than by force or by some government who says I have to give all my paycheck to the next guy who doesn’t work, how is that wrong?

Ryan

*not to be misunderstood that I completely agree