Children Stolen in Haiti

And on the assumption that the report is fundamentally correct, although we should have some reservations about that, it raises far more complex subjects.

Some parents wanted to give their children away and would do it again, for the good of the child. Some didn’t know the children had been taken. Some parents are colluding to kidnap their and other children.

Haiti is an appalling tragedy, and was so before the earthquake and now it is many, many times worse. Estimates of orpaned children run into the hundreds of thousands.

Are we, sitting in relative comfort in Western Europe ( and elsewhere of course ) able to judge, dispassionately, the actions of these people in that god forsaken country?

Well,it looks as though the more sceptical of you were right all along – according to this article,ALL the children still have parents.
What a sorry state of affairs in all respects.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1249280/The-child-snatchers-U-S-missionaries-accused-stealing-orphans-Haiti-quake-0-shocking-parents-dont-want-back.html

Links to (safe for work!) websites are OK, old shape.

So-called “hot-linking” (where, for example, a video on another site is directly embedded into a posting) is the “no-no”.

Cheers

GA

Ta for clarity.

Yapping to the wife on this subject matter (She’s doing life as a Social Worker with kids and thus knows a bit) it is now thought very wrong to place kids in different ethnic and colour backgrounds, it is seen as diluting a culture and also confusing the roots and history of the kiddie.
It goes agin the PC brigade and hence the academics/councils don’t know how to handle it.
They of course detest (Who doesn’t) the fashion status of having a black one, like Mad Donna.

Moderator Message

Links to (safe for work!) websites are OK, old shape.

So-called “hot-linking” (where, for example, a video on another site is directly embedded into a posting) is the “no-no”.

Cheers

GA

I don’t know the exact case you’re referring to (no link – ?)
Ryan

I never use links. It’s supposed to be a no-no in forums.

They’ve been arrested for child trafficking. No surprises there then.

I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the idea of international adoptions either, however genuine people’s intentions.
If adoptions were to be seen as a legitimate way of helping Haitian children, then possibly they should only be seen as an absolute last resort. The fact that some groups seem to be carting children out of the country so soon after the earthquake suggests to me that they are acting improperly or at least without due regard for the children’s welfare.
Relief in situ with children and familes being helped to rebuild their lives in Haiti seems a much better idea.

You are right. Some of us are guilty of pre-judging enquiries and incidents before all the facts are known. It does not help and spleen is vented often on incomplete and/or erroneous information.

Here’s a recent CNN story….
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/02/03/haiti.border.arrests/index.html

Short version: they thought everything was in order, when stopped at the border for want of some paperwork, they went back into the capitol for it. There they were arrested.
If they were trying to “steal” kids, I’m not sure they would have done that.
Also, some parents, guardians of kids knowingly gave them to the group…undermining the kidnapping argument.
In other words, theye is still a lot of facts to be sorted out.

My point remains what it was before….until the facts are known (and considering the suituation in Haiti…who knows then that might be)…

Stop the religion bashing and name calling.

If they were trying to help the kids, give them a bit of credit even though they may have gone about it the wrong way…

If they were really trying to “steal’ the kids, it will come out.
THEN name calling can commence.

Ryan.

How can they have good intentions?

They were removing orphans (some of whom, strangely, actually had parents) without passports and without any other documentation from the Haitian authorities granting them the right to remove said children.

Now explain to me how any of that can be described as anything other than kidnapping?

Don’t you just love this quote from the link you provided….

They are being held in a jail in Port-au-Prince. Members of the group described conditions as sparse, but said they are getting sufficient amounts of food and water.

Unlike many people in Haiti who do not have the luxury of shelter and are struggling to obtain enough food and water.

It is absolutely reprehensible that people from a Baptist Church in middle America should think that they have the right to travel to such a ravaged Country and steal children like this.

And you know the really sick part of it all? They almost certainly believe they are doing God’s work.

Regards,

kev35

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/02/02/haiti.border.arrests/index.html?hpt=Sbin

Seems to me that both sides were not quite doing right. The paperwork should have been in order, but it sure doesn’t sound like a case of intentional kidnapping…
It must be pretty bad for parents to intentionally give up their kids like that. Seems to me it would be far better use of resources to try and improve the parents situation with some better tools and training. I can sympathize with the US group that appears to be in pretty hot water, but I think it would’ve been better for them to make an effort to make the village more sustainable – and leave the kids with their parents regardless of the parents apparently sending them off with them.

Ryan

Except that, if substantiated, as some of the children were asking for their parents they were, presumably, being taken against their will. That is kidnapping.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/02/02/haiti.border.arrests/index.html?hpt=Sbin

Seems to me that both sides were not quite doing right. The paperwork should have been in order, but it sure doesn’t sound like a case of intentional kidnapping…
It must be pretty bad for parents to intentionally give up their kids like that. Seems to me it would be far better use of resources to try and improve the parents situation with some better tools and training. I can sympathize with the US group that appears to be in pretty hot water, but I think it would’ve been better for them to make an effort to make the village more sustainable – and leave the kids with their parents regardless of the parents apparently sending them off with them.

Ryan

I have read with some sadness and some undertanding of the various points of view expressed in this thread, which has, understandably, generated a lot of emotion and some anger.

I feel that the overriding criteria must be what is best for the child or children, not what might be best, politically, commercially or even legally.

If, and I am not for a moment suggesting this is the case, as I do not know enough of the facts to form an opinion, if the children will have better prospects for a happy, fulfilled life outside Haiti, perhaps that should be taken account of.

I suspect there are many cases where a religious, moral, commercial, legal or political reason rules against the best interests of the child in question.

However I would also like to point out that it’s more or less impossible to appreciate the misery that being unable to have children causes unless you’ve experienced it personally.
If an orphaned child can become part of a loving family by money changing hands,then I won’t condemn that.

Fair comment. But this is not a case of childless individuals trying to adopt orphans. It is a case of an organisation collecting children, with little or no attempt to check whether or not they are orphans, & attempting to transport them out of their country, with the express purpose (in their own words) of permanently removing them. Their plan was to hand them over to people of their own ilk.

Those children old enough to speak about it say that they were told their removal was temporary, to something resembling a summer camp. Not only are some of them known not to be orphans, it’s obvious that the New Life people can only have been unaware of that if they did not speak to the children. Their methods are, to say the least, questionable.

Children have been spirited away from previous disasters by organisations seeking to place them with adoptive families, & subsequently been found to have loving parents, separated from their children by the disaster, & desperately seeking them. The distress caused to those parents is, IMO, far greater than that of wishing for children & not having any. That is why UNICEF, Save the Children et al will not attempt to have lost children adopted for two years. It’s to give time to find their parents, or other relatives, if alive.

BTW, I am childless – and not by choice. I do know.

Purpose: Rescue Haitian orphans abandoned on the streets, makeshift hospitals or from
collapsed orphanages in Port au Prince and surrounding areas, and bring them to New Life
Children’s Refuge in Cabarete, Dominican Republic.
….
• For God to continue to grant favor with the Dominican Government in allowing us to
bring as many orphans as we can into the DR
…
Future Buildings and Plans for NLCR in Magante
…
• Seaside Villas at Playa Magante*: Villas for adopting parents to stay while fulfilling requirement for
60‐90 day visit as well as Christian volunteers/vacationing families.
• Provide opportunities for adoption through partnership with New Life Adoption Foundation which
works with adoption agencies in the U.S. to help facilitate adoptions and provide grants to subsidize
the cost of adoption for loving Christian parents who would otherwise not be able to afford to
adopt.
• Seaside Café at Playa Magante*: small beachfront restaurant serving the community and adopting
parents

However I would also like to point out that it’s more or less impossible to appreciate the misery that being unable to have children causes unless you’ve experienced it personally.

A very close and dear friend went through exactly that, and it was heart-rending to witness.

If an orphaned child can become part of a loving family by money changing hands,then I won’t condemn that.

If a child is bought and sold they are reduced to the status of a consumer durable, and I certainly will condemn that.

We will have to agree to differ.

I do not believe that all adopted orphans are BOUGHT or are in the least way slaves.

No-one who has posted in this thread has said that, Ryan. That is a strawman.

I don’t need a Church or a God to tell me that’s the right thing to do.

Interesting that we both come to very similar conclusions about helping others, but I can tell you why I believe the conclusion is universally valid, but you just keep giving me an opinion that could be in conflict with someone else’s opinion.
For the record, from what I’m seeing, reading, and hearing, I’m beginning to think that the Baptist group made some serious mistakes in their efforts, which I still want to think were well-intentioned. That’s not good… especially because it’s affecting other good groups who are trying to do things the right way.

Ryan

J Boyle.

Can you explain something here for me please? In an earlier post you wrote….

For many, it’s perhaps easier to adopt a non-US child (from what I hear, there aren’t that many U.S. children to adopt in poart because some authorities frown on couples adopting children not of their race).

Yet in your last post you comment on news stories whereby Haitian children are already being adopted in the aftermath of the earthquake. How can the two opposing views expressed there be reconciled?

Regards,

kev35

Simple, there are groups in this country that do not like to place American African-American (i.e. black) orphans with white families.
I’m not saying it never happens, but some people are against it.
They would rather see black children placed in black foster familes than be adopted by whites.

Also, you misread my comment about local families…
Local news reports have been done on families that have adopted Hatian orphans BEFORE the earthquake. (Although I’ve seen a couple of stories about those familes wanting to bring out additional children SINCE the quake. In one case, wanting to bring their adopted child siblings to the US).

Ryan.

Like taking care of elderly widows in our church? Yeah… Or the widowed cousin who has 5 children she’s raising that my parents help out when they can, or trying to take care of my grandmother before she died instead of sending her off to a nursing home.

I don’t need a Church or a God to tell me that’s the right thing to do.

If you followed that link I sent you they were trying to help some of the elderly there as well.

Or using an allegedly 110 year old woman for a photo opportunity? In all the years I worked as a nurse I never once felt compelled to take a picture of any of the patients in my care focussing solely on the gravity of their situation.

Goodnight Ryan.

kev35

Ryan.

Your philanthropy knows no bounds. Might it extend to taking in homeless adults, widows, widowers and the elderly and infirm?

Or is it just a ready supply of children you’re interested in?

Regards,

kev35

Like taking care of elderly widows in our church? Yeah… Or the widowed cousin who has 5 children she’s raising that my parents help out when they can, or trying to take care of my grandmother before she died instead of sending her off to a nursing home. If you followed that link I sent you they were trying to help some of the elderly there as well.
If folks are truly in need and need help, and you have the means, it’s worth a shot. Prioritization sometimes takes place, but that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t try.
In the end, we can’t do it all, but we can help.
I wish you could meet some of the adopted kids that I know. That would probably be far more convincing to you than 100 pages of my typing.

Ryan

Ryan.

Your philanthropy knows no bounds. Might it extend to taking in homeless adults, widows, widowers and the elderly and infirm?

Or is it just a ready supply of children you’re interested in?

Regards,

kev35