Children Stolen in Haiti

Kids for $5000?
I know several people who have adopted Chinese girls (and one Chinese boy with a birth defect)…they all had to pay $20-25,000 for them.

Me too. I really don’t know any exact figures for specific situations, but I know there are significant costs involved.

Ryan

Then what’s our objective standard for right and wrong?

Ryan

I know what mine is. You, however, are clearly having difficulties.

I know right from wrong without having to resort to a book. I know how to do the right thing without being told. I know the meaning of care and compassion without the expectation of reward in an afterlife.

Regards,

kev35

YIt’s about right and wrong.

Then what’s our objective standard for right and wrong?

Ryan

There’s a word to describe the buying and selling of human beings, isn’t there?

Rhymes with ‘unsavoury’.

Which seems more than a little apt, in fact.

You were the one who was quoting market prices for human children, Ryan. No-one else here has placed a cash value on a human life.

You’re wrong and I extremely resent the slavery remark. I WAS NOT putting a price on the children’s head, but talking about how much financial commitment it takes to go through the process to adopt them. If the government and the UN over there, or even here in the US REALLY cared about orphans, they wouldn’t charge for the paperwork and make you jump through very significant hoops to actually adopt one. No, they don’t care and are perfectly happy to leave them in little stinkholes or worse without much of any hope for the future – like the little Romanian girl my mother’s college roomate adopted who’s probably permanently damaged because of the lead paint in the orphanage she was stuck in. Did our friend need to add on that burden to her life of taking her on? No, but she wanted to do something for someone other than herself and is a fine example of sacrificial love for an orphan.
There are THREE Haitian children in our church (amongst other US and foreign adopted children) that were adopted by loving parents who are taking good care of them. Some of the parents weren’t able to have children of their own and wanted to help out an orphan, others already have their own children but wanted to help more. These orphans are living good lives and there is a VAAAAASST difference between parents who are committed to lovingly providing a HOME for them, taking care of their needs, and even leaving them an inheritance, and SLAVERY. I wish I could say what I really think of your comments. These parents are investing in kids that could completely go a different direction in a few years, but are willing to help them because it’s the RIGHT thing to do.
Speaking of care, a lot of folks here and on other boards disparage marriage and kids in general as well, as if they are a huge financial drain amongst other things. Well, kids CAN be a financial drain, and will be to society if they are stuck in some orphanage or left to their own devices as well. Why not support parents or adoptive parents who actually care for the kids on their own dime instead of treating them like dirt?
I’m just calling you on this. You should be ashamed of yourselves. You should get to know some of these adoptive families and stop accusing them of crimes. The kids are FINE and are thriving.

Ryan

You’re right Ryan, it’s not about the money. It’s about right and wrong.

Regards,

kev35

There’s a word to describe the buying and selling of human beings, isn’t there?

Rhymes with ‘unsavoury’.

Which seems more than a little apt, in fact.

It’s NOT about the money. It’s about trying to help with what means you DO have.

You were the one who was quoting market prices for human children, Ryan. No-one else here has placed a cash value on a human life.

It’s NOT about the money. It’s about trying to help with what means you DO have.

Ryan

Kids for $5000?
I know several people who have adopted Chinese girls (and one Chinese boy with a birth defect)…they all had to pay $20-25,000 for them.

Ryan.

“And no, it’s not that people don’t adopt US kids. I know of 4 or so in that group I mentioned. On the other hand, a family that can’t afford to adopt a US kid for $20,000 might be able to adopt a $5,000 (handling fees and paperwork and other expenses). My money remark was more intended for the situation in Haiti.”

And that little comment tells me all I needed to know thank you. Never mind that more children are orphaned by the terrible disaster in Haiti, it reduces the price and increases the opportunity. I am sure your God is suitably brimming with pride.

Regards,

kev35

“I’d give you some specific links on the web if I was sure you wouldn’t use them for scoffing purposes.”

If there’s scope for ‘scoffing’ then doesn’t that imply that the aims of the organisations you speak of are, shall we say, open to interpretation? Ambiguous?

Not quite an accurate interpretation. More like not casting your pearls…

“I might be American, or you might think of me as a Texan instead… Yes, some of the families will be American – like the two families in our church that had adopted kids from Haiti before the earthquake. We’re not racist or weird, either. Here in the states, people I know DO adopt US kids, but often it’s a matter of jurisdictions and frankly money.”

I won’t rise to the Texan remark, it would be far too easy. But you go on to say it is all about money after all. Which proves my point. You could adopt American kids but frankly it”s much less bother and a lot cheaper to get them elsewhere.

Sorry about the Texan thing. It’s not necessarily what you think, merely that I don’t always find my loyalty to US policy that firm.

And no, it’s not that people don’t adopt US kids. I know of 4 or so in that group I mentioned. On the other hand, a family that can’t afford to adopt a US kid for $20,000 might be able to adopt a $5,000 (handling fees and paperwork and other expenses). My money remark was more intended for the situation in Haiti. If you are willing to be unethical and BRIBE the right people with enough money, they might give you the paperwork they should give you anyway. That’s the point. Also, a group might have gone through all the officially required hoops and be told their paperwork isn’t good enough because some official wants something under the table. Mexico is even worse in that regard, and to keep it aviation related, one of the flight schools nearby just lost a significant amount of foreign business because the students found out they could go to the Philippines and buy their pilot certificates. For the record, I personally believe bribes are generally unethical unless you need to save your life or someone else’s and it’s disgusting how prevalent they are in some cultures.

“Actually, I would call it genuine concern, and your accusation of stealing is very uncivil. Would you rather that a family took an orphan in and cares for them and allows them to have a childhood, or some stupid mass organization that treats them as wards of the orphanage?”

Why can’t an American family adopt an American child unless it is purely a case of money? Of course there are many Haitian orphans who require adoption and I am not against that. I am against the idea of people representing Religious organisations coming to a Country and taking children whether they are orphaned or not.

Ok, I’m officially bewildered at this line. Maybe because the orphans there need help a LOT more than the ones here, though both need help. Maybe because these people genuinely want to give them better opportunities in life. Just for the record, how many families do YOU know of that WANT to take on additional children and help raise them, and perhaps even leave them an inheritance?

“So because some groups mistreat kids, we make the governmental organizations the nanny? You obviously don’t know much about the historical reality of how the UN cares for it’s people.”

And you, as a Religious man, obviously doesn’t care much about the historical reality of how some Religious organisations care for their children or have you not read about Catholic Clergy and their treatment of altar boys?

Ah yes, a typical slam. I’m well aware of the appalling abuse that takes place in Roman Catholic circles, but then again, they’re not following the Scriptures their religion claims to be based upon, so that’s an irrelevant argument. Yes some professing Christians have done some evil things, but so do atheists, Muslims, Hindus, and whatever other group you want to name. Church leadership should be married and should live above reproach. Of course people all do bad things, but let’s not throw the orphan baby out with the bathwater. Do you really think they are better off over there starving, without decent education, and in a city of 100,000 destroyed buildings and rotting corpses?
Again, this particular group MAY have done something wrong, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn it’s a situation more like Swamp Ghost in PNG…

Ryan

For what it’s worth…
The Church group I think you’re talking about is based not too far from here.

The group admits it’s paperwork was not in order they were taking orphans to the Dominican Republic.
News reports say they’ll meet with a government official (the Haiti Justice Minister) to try and make sense of it.

In other words, put down the torches until some facts are known.:rolleyes:
Let’s see how it plays out before we lynch some folks who may have just been trying to do something good…albeit the wrong way.

If they were indeed trying to “steal” the children for nefarious purposes, there will be pleny of time to lynch them later…:rolleyes:

Let’s try to avoid a trial by media….stoked by religious prejudice and international sterotypes.

I suggest both of you go away and look at the role of orphanages in Haiti. It might be worth you looking into how and why children enter orphanages in Haiti.

Well intentioned or otherwise, it seems certain that those American Baptists now under arrest were stealing children, not all of whom were orphans in the traditional sense of the word. It appears that they had absolutely no legal right to be doing what they did.

Ryan. You don’t construcy your arguments very well do you? For instance….

“I’d give you some specific links on the web if I was sure you wouldn’t use them for scoffing purposes.”

If there’s scope for ‘scoffing’ then doesn’t that imply that the aims of the organisations you speak of are, shall we say, open to interpretation? Ambiguous?

“I might be American, or you might think of me as a Texan instead… Yes, some of the families will be American – like the two families in our church that had adopted kids from Haiti before the earthquake. We’re not racist or weird, either. Here in the states, people I know DO adopt US kids, but often it’s a matter of jurisdictions and frankly money.”

I won’t rise to the Texan remark, it would be far too easy. But you go on to say it is all about money after all. Which proves my point. You could adopt American kids but frankly it”s much less bother and a lot cheaper to get them elsewhere.

“Actually, I would call it genuine concern, and your accusation of stealing is very uncivil. Would you rather that a family took an orphan in and cares for them and allows them to have a childhood, or some stupid mass organization that treats them as wards of the orphanage?”

Why can’t an American family adopt an American child unless it is purely a case of money? Of course there are many Haitian orphans who require adoption and I am not against that. I am against the idea of people representing Religious organisations coming to a Country and taking children whether they are orphaned or not.

“So because some groups mistreat kids, we make the governmental organizations the nanny? You obviously don’t know much about the historical reality of how the UN cares for it’s people.”

And you, as a Religious man, obviously doesn’t care much about the historical reality of how some Religious organisations care for their children or have you not read about Catholic Clergy and their treatment of altar boys?

“There’s a clear “path” for how widows should be treated in Scripture. And yes, my family does help out widows – especially one or two that are in our own family circle.”

I’ve never needed a book to tell me about humanity or common decency.

Regards,

kev35

Ryan.

Whether under the safety blanket of Religion or not, what gives people the right to tear these children away from their Country? How the hell can anyone know whether or not any of these ‘new orphans’ (doesn’t that sound terribly like fresh?) don’t have relatives scouring the camps and orphanages looking for them? I gather you’re American? You say there are legitimate adoption groups trying to get these children ‘new’ families. Would those families be Haitian? Or American by any chance? Look at the number of adoption agencies operating in America and the number of children put up for adoption. Don’t you think it might behove the Christians of America to adopt them first? What is the agenda that encourages Christian organisations to steal orphans from other Countries? People are meddling where they shouldn’t. Or to put it more accurately, Religions are meddling whether they shouldn’t.

You decry the efforts of Unicef yet support Religious organisations who are stealing children? There’s at least one Religion with a less than satisfactory histroy regarding its treatment of children.

As for your parting quote, well, what utter nonsense. Don’t see many Religious organisations there helping widows, do you?

Regards,

kev35

That’s right, leave them to rot in hell. I live in the middle of Africa and I see it every day of my life. You guys living in comfort far away have no clue what goes on in reality in poor countries. And as long as kids are brought up in those conditions, they will believe that those kind of conditions are normal and make no effort to improve their standard of living later on in life. I think that if any kid is orphaned there, and there is someone able to give them a better life elsewhere, go for it. I’m not talking about stealing children who have living relatives, I’m talking about bona fide orphans.

You seem to be working on the assumption that the group concerned are decent people, doing the best they can. I believe you are making a big mistake. These Idaho Baptists may be well-meaning & misguided, or they may be a bunch of money-grubbing child traffickers. I don’t know. But if you are well-meaning, you should not behave like a money-grubbing child trafficker. Nor should you fail to give children adequate food & water while transporting them.

That group may indeed have been acting wrongly. I mentioned I wasn’t sure which group was being targeted. For sure some good groups are getting lumped with the not so great and it’s really frustrating legitimate efforts going on right now.

Ryan

Ryan.

Whether under the safety blanket of Religion or not, what gives people the right to tear these children away from their Country?How the hell can anyone know whether or not any of these ‘new orphans’ (doesn’t that sound terribly like fresh?) don’t have relatives scouring the camps and orphanages looking for them?

I’d give you some specific links on the web if I was sure you wouldn’t use them for scoffing purposes. Some of these kids were ALREADY in orphanages that are now destroyed. I can tell you for certain that no one in circles I know of is intentionally taking out kids that aren’t really and truly orphaned.
And as to “tearing them away from their country” – you have a semi-valid point there, but these kids don’t have ANYTHING anymore, and the grown ups there literally have no way to take care of them either. Your taking a chance either way, but I guarantee you some of those orphans will have a vastly better opportunity if they are allowed to come here. Besides, even their own government is basically shot right now and foreigners are really running the country at the moment from what I can tell.

I gather you’re American? You say there are legitimate adoption groups trying to get these children ‘new’ families. Would those families be Haitian? Or American by any chance? Look at the number of adoption agencies operating in America and the number of children put up for adoption. Don’t you think it might behove the Christians of America to adopt them first?

I might be American, or you might think of me as a Texan instead…;) Yes, some of the families will be American – like the two families in our church that had adopted kids from Haiti before the earthquake. We’re not racist or weird, either. Here in the states, people I know DO adopt US kids, but often it’s a matter of jurisdictions and frankly money. We would be the first to say that if the kids have family, the family ought to be first in line to take care of the kids, 100%. Also, you have no idea how stupidly expensive the government makes it to adopt in the first place, plus the restrictions put on a person after they do so. I’m sure I cloud come up with at least 10 families in my immediate circle of friends with adopted kids.

What is the agenda that encourages Christian organisations to steal orphans from other Countries? People are meddling where they shouldn’t. Or to put it more accurately, Religions are meddling whether they shouldn’t.

Actually, I would call it genuine concern, and your accusation of stealing is very uncivil. Would you rather that a family took an orphan in and cares for them and allows them to have a childhood, or some stupid mass organization that treats them as wards of the orphanage?

You decry the efforts of Unicef yet support Religious organisations who are stealing children? There’s at least one Religion with a less than satisfactory histroy regarding its treatment of children.

So because some groups mistreat kids, we make the governmental organizations the nanny? You obviously don’t know much about the historical reality of how the UN cares for it’s people.

As for your parting quote, well, what utter nonsense. Don’t see many Religious organisations there helping widows, do you?

Honestly, not enough do, but that doesn’t mean some of us don’t. There’s a clear “path” for how widows should be treated in Scripture. And yes, my family does help out widows – especially one or two that are in our own family circle.

Ryan

…The kids there are BEGGING for folks to adopt them.

Not all the kids. One of that bunch was crying for her parents, who she knew to be alive. Others are too young to express themselves.

There ARE legitimate adoption groups trying to provide families who care for these kids instead of them being in some institution. The situation is horrible and there are a number of people that genuinely are trying to help these children. .

Ryan

Yes, there are. But spiriting children away from their parents, & trying to smuggle undocumented children across the border illegally, is not what legitimate adoption groups do.

You seem to be working on the assumption that the group concerned are decent people, doing the best they can. I believe you are making a big mistake. These Idaho Baptists may be well-meaning & misguided, or they may be a bunch of money-grubbing child traffickers. I don’t know. But if you are well-meaning, you should not behave like a money-grubbing child trafficker. Nor should you fail to give children adequate food & water while transporting them.

Ryan.

Whether under the safety blanket of Religion or not, what gives people the right to tear these children away from their Country? How the hell can anyone know whether or not any of these ‘new orphans’ (doesn’t that sound terribly like fresh?) don’t have relatives scouring the camps and orphanages looking for them? I gather you’re American? You say there are legitimate adoption groups trying to get these children ‘new’ families. Would those families be Haitian? Or American by any chance? Look at the number of adoption agencies operating in America and the number of children put up for adoption. Don’t you think it might behove the Christians of America to adopt them first? What is the agenda that encourages Christian organisations to steal orphans from other Countries? People are meddling where they shouldn’t. Or to put it more accurately, Religions are meddling whether they shouldn’t.

You decry the efforts of Unicef yet support Religious organisations who are stealing children? There’s at least one Religion with a less than satisfactory histroy regarding its treatment of children.

As for your parting quote, well, what utter nonsense. Don’t see many Religious organisations there helping widows, do you?

Regards,

kev35

As usual, it’s a Religious freak show, claiming to be doing good but actually either (a) Stealing kids to sell to the highest bidder (b) Stealing kids in readiness for a cult.
No way on earth does anybody with any integrity or intellect think they can just pick kids up from the street and expect to take them away.

They “May” have been honest (1% chance) but they deserve all that is thrown at them if so. If guilty, we need to find out the sponsors and kill the lot of ’em.

I don’t know the exact case you’re referring to (no link – ?) but from what I’m hearing from folks with boots on the ground, you aren’t hearing all sides of the story. Yes, I’ve seen the news reports on USA Today and BBC, etc.. but my dad’s boss is there right now along with others and I know of other folks there as well. The kids there are BEGGING for folks to adopt them. The people there have NO WAY to take care of all of the new orphans, much less themselves. There ARE legitimate adoption groups trying to provide families who care for these kids instead of them being in some institution. The situation is horrible and there are a number of people that genuinely are trying to help these children. The folks from UNICEF and other agencies have their own agendas for these children (they’ve been messing up that part of the world for years now anyway) and are not really doing what’s best for them. FYI, from what I’m hearing it looks like money and other things are the real issue. If you’re willing to pay enough, they’re just fine rubber stamping things.
Anyway, I won’t post anymore on the subject, but there are multiple agendas at play here and using it as an excuse to bash good people who are trying to provide real help is not right.
And yes, I am a Christian and there are specific reasons why Christians have a duty towards orphans – “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

Ryan

As usual, it’s a Religious freak show, claiming to be doing good but actually either (a) Stealing kids to sell to the highest bidder (b) Stealing kids in readiness for a cult.
No way on earth does anybody with any integrity or intellect think they can just pick kids up from the street and expect to take them away.

They “May” have been honest (1% chance) but they deserve all that is thrown at them if so. If guilty, we need to find out the sponsors and kill the lot of ’em.

That goes for other criminal activities such as drug dealing as well, the pawns get caught and the ringleaders usually get away. And the west is too damn soft with criminals in the name of human rights. Anyone choosing to infringe upon the rights of others immediately gives up his own rights.