"Ding Dong The Dinosaur is Dead" ?

Agreed BUT we are now swinging badly towards management abuse again.

My dislike of unions is solely because they abused their powers and played a major part in the destruction of British industry. Closed shops were the worst firm of protectionism. My first hand experience of working in Liverpool and the north west in the seventies opened my eyes.

Trade unions were needed to balance the excesses of appalling management but the two sides rarely respected each other so disaster was inevitable.

Re 48

Snafu

How on earth did we manage years ago before the advent of trade union

Maybe this is the bit of your quote that people should look back to.
The days when people didn’t have any human working rights,hired/ fired at will,working under extremely dangerous conditions,losing limbs and life because of awful working conditions and the bosses not giving a toss.
Whatever hatred there is for unions on this forum if the owners/bosses/managers had been half decent in the first place unions wouldn’t have been needed .There are two sides to each story.
I get the impression on this forum that many on here are ex managers,ex forces or employees who are treated poorly because of a lack of support. They seem to hate unions because they are there to be hated rather than look deeper and see that actually over a long period of time the unions have done a huge amount well .As ever it is only the tabloid headline hitting type accusations that get noticed.
A huge amount of good things that have happened regarding safety,quality have come in because the unions have stood up and said that if something is wrong it is wrong.Isn’t it strange when a major incident happens and people are hurt the unions had warned the management about the problems before hand i e staffing level cuts,short cuts being taken all things which contributed along the way.
When you get on a plane,train,tube or treated by overworked underpaid hospital staff just be grateful that you have one of the best and safest and that the management have NOT been able to ride rough shod over everything.
Yes there are bad things in the past about unions but that is only the bits you hear about or want to hear about– don’t diss the good bits.

Re 48

Snafu

How on earth did we manage years ago before the advent of trade union inspired job creation ? It was job creation and job protectionism that began the trade unions slow march to extinction. The process continues.

…… these are for the sort of safety reasons I have gone on and on about and you have ignored. Station staff might appear to be there for the purpose of selling you a ticket BUT they are essentially there to handle any problems or incidents that occur – which is apparently the reason the ticket offices appear closed and you have to buy your ticket from a machine, or do your best to tackle the timetables without the aid of a safety net, but in fact the staff are off sorting out some problem.

Well this is patently far too risky to allow. Surely the staff member that normally mans the ticket office should have a deputy who can stand in when they are called away to sort out any problem so that there is always somebody in the ticket office who can sort out any problem whilst the normal staff member is away from his post.

Management manage. That’s what they are paid to do. If they have decided, with all the facts in front of them that ON BALANCE the system is more efficient without people idling their days away in a little locked room on the off chance that at some point their unique skills might be needed to sort out problems I certainly don’t feel qualified to suggest they are wrong. You apparently do. I just wonder where you get this insight from?

But to go back to my original point. We heard all this when LT as it was then dispensed with bus conductors and no significant harm has come from it. There is no reason why the same doesn’t apply to ticket sellers on the tube.

Moggy

OK so it wasn’t about the driver’s death but the fact the bus passengers milled about for a bit?

Did I say that? No. Did I mention the stupids who muttered about how they were not being taken care of by the company because their driver was incapacitated? I rather think I did. It was an observation concerning some people making remarks about the lack of staff.
In fact I can see the point about getting rid of conductors (who retained their tickets anyway) and making buses with only one entrance.

So this is your argument then – unless you have a member of staff locked away in a small room the opposite side of the barrier to the active (rail) side of the station, then once every few years some passengers who for some strange reason cannot communicate with the staff member customarily standing out at the barriers, may be slightly inconvenienced through their own inadequacy?

I’ll give you that, but I still don’t see that it makes manning a ticket office anything other than a non-job.

I guess that being a soldier is a non job most of the time, then. (That will get a few backs up!!!;o)

How many teachers should there be in the classroom? How many prison officers per wing? Guards at Buckingham Palace? What about crew in the cockpit on an airliner? Or in air traffic control?
Some jobs have a specific requirement about the number of personnel on duty at any one time, and some of these are for the sort of safety reasons I have gone on and on about and you have ignored. Station staff might appear to be there for the purpose of selling you a ticket BUT they are essentially there to handle any problems or incidents that occur – which is apparently the reason the ticket offices appear closed and you have to buy your ticket from a machine, or do your best to tackle the timetables without the aid of a safety net, but in fact the staff are off sorting out some problem.

They always struck me as a bunch of Luddites, technology moves on and paying hundreds of people to do jobs that no longer exist is just barking.

But in some cases it is cheaper to employ them and let the company go to the wall, rather than pay redundancy.

Re 41 (Do your own homework)

You don’t cultivate popularity do you ?

Are you the one who didn’t click the ‘like’ button?

….99% of transactions these days can be done through a hoe in the wall

Really? Who is she?

Moggy

Re 41 (Do your own homework)

You don’t cultivate popularity do you ?

They always struck me as a bunch of Luddites, technology moves on and paying hundreds of people to do jobs that no longer exist is just barking. I foresee banking as the next big one, 99% of transactions these days can be done through a hoe in the wall, you do not need a major branches on the other side.
Similar the way shopping and the web has gone, though I wish someone would explain to M&S that one reason their sales suffer is it is okay to have an online store, BUT if it means having to go into a store to collect food items you order online, people will and do shop elsewhere. Online shopping means delivery as well.

OK so it wasn’t about the driver’s death but the fact the bus passengers milled about for a bit?

So this is your argument then – unless you have a member of staff locked away in a small room the opposite side of the barrier to the active (rail) side of the station, then once every few years some passengers who for some strange reason cannot communicate with the staff member customarily standing out at the barriers, may be slightly inconvenienced through their own inadequacy?

I’ll give you that, but I still don’t see that it makes manning a ticket office anything other than a non-job.

Moggy

So how was it relevant to this topic? :confused:

Moggy

I am confused – isn’t this thread creep homeland?
Anyway, I believe it gave you the chance to show you didn’t read what was there. FYI means For Your Information. You were the one introducing the fatuous idea that I was advocating retaining conductors merely to save one drivers life; I only mentioned what happened subsequently to the driver for completeness.

Several years ago I came across an accident involving a bus where the driver was seriously injured and there was no staff member to field the passengers out of the wreckage to safety. Having parked to prevent speeding idiots from crashing into the accident there was a small group of idiot commuters standing in the road discussing how the bus company had left them to fend for themselves by not providing another member of staff to look after them in the event of an accident…

It is all there, just let the little grey cells work it out. (Hint: look for the bit mentioning ‘idiot commuters‘. I haven’t seen you as the type to ride buses, up until now, but were you on board a fatal bus accident around 2007-8…?)

FYI there wouldn’t have been anything that could have been done by a conductor to have helped that driver

So how was it relevant to this topic? :confused:

Moggy

Sorry – suffering a bit of a cold/headache/flu/backache/taloia at the moment – plus the pleasure of having an argument with a tipsy cyclist who stood in the middle of my lane on a road in the dark in the fog wearing dark clothing and no lights telling me that the weather conditions meant I shouldn’t be driving in the dark. Oh, and the baby has screaming diarrhea combined with nappy rash.

So as I understand it your argument for employing sufficient clippies to man 11,000 buses (in London alone) for 7 days a week all-year round is that it might have saved one driver’s life? It does great credit for your humanity, little for your clarity of thought.

Equally the fatuous argument about staff sitting in little armoured boxes on tube stations being essential for first aid and information purposes. I don’t know if you have ever travelled on a tube, but there is invariably a real human stood by the barriers able to fulfil these functions far better than ticket office staff.

Moggy

Nope, not my argument at all. Just an observation by a stupid person complaining that the bus company wasn’t taking care of its passengers. FYI there wouldn’t have been anything that could have been done by a conductor to have helped that driver, pointless comeback there.

As I understand it the proposal is for there to be just three members of staff at the ‘unmanned’ (ticket office) stations which won’t be enough to provide the (apparently) required by law level of cover. I have travelled on the tube and I have tried to use the current ticket machines – give me a human being to ask questions of and have advice dealt out by any time.

Re 30

I guess that the answer is no; but, did you ever attend the LSE ? Your Trotskyite claptrap has most of the hallmarks without any polish. Your statements have more holes than the Titanic.

The trouble with just giving a number rather than a quote is that you only pinpoint the whole post, not what the hell you are referring to. Narrow it down because at the moment you are making yourself look a little foolish…;o)

It is pretty obvious that judged by your outrageous and inhuman comments about Lady T that you are no gentleman.

Hey, she was no lady, even when given a peerage. But if you want to dish out insults about another human being that you found to be not to your taste then expect to find things (truths;o) out about someone others very much despised.
Look at the jubilation displayed when she died – that song from The Wizard of Oz making it into the charts and causing controversy by not being played on the radio… Appreciate that she was not everybody’s cup of tea and get over it – she is dead and, unless certain (untrue) rumours are to be believed, she ain’t coming back.

A statement clearly only intended to be insulting! :rolleyes:

Frustrating, innit…

My question, and yes, it was a question, was not related to ticket-office staffing levels. I’ll try again.

Do you have a problem with union members, or any worker, doing whatever (legally) is within their power to protect their job and maximise their earnings?

If the union members are not breaking the law then who can have a problem with any action that is legal?;o)

I was forced to take a pay cut three years ago, and I haven’t had a pay rise since – yet prices are not stagnant, as we are all aware, so essentially my income is dropping by the day. But if I ask for a rise I risk bringing myself to the attention of those bu33ers at the top of the food chain who might decide to do away with my services since I would be (to them) a ‘troublemaker’. (Joy of a complicatedly contracted freelance…)
How do I make my concerns known?
If I can kick up a fuss that gets media attention then others become aware, and it could help protect me from being singled out as a troublemaker by the bosses. Hopefully. (But it won’t work, not for me)

(And the second part of the question.)

Get on with it!!!

Even if what they do causes disruption to those that use the service they provide and ultimately ends up passing more costs onto those that use that service?

Profit these days is built in; nothing will be absorbed into the profit, but is immediately passed on to the consumer. Usually.
The underground bosses don’t want to interfere with the money: a day of strikes is another black mark on their records. It is a threat. So they start the PR war, trying to present themselves as the good guys – whilst the union guys are trying to do exactly the same themselves (witness the trashing that Bob Crow got for taking the sort of holiday management take without comment).
Passengers expect to be able to get to/from work on their trains, and they do, but when there is industrial action and things stop or go slower there is no collective thinking about what happened to get it to this stage. In the 70s, yes, there was almost the equivalent of a Mafia don threatening to cut the power or stop production unless the workers got an increase – but that cannot happen anymore (government legislation) and a lot of hoops have to be jumped through before you get to the strike stage. And if you remember the underground strike was about saving jobs rather than a pay increase…

Koff, hakk, snorkal, splutter…

A few posts are memorable in these fora over the weeks and months and Tony, that is one of them!!;)

Tony

You irreverent #ugger ! That’s excellent !

Apparently, they are burying Bob Crow on Thursday for 24 hours and then again next Thursday, and then each and every Thursday after that until his demands are met.

..

Strewth! Read the first part of your sentence, then have someone else explain it to you. Really, I’m not trying to be insulting but when you’ve posed a question by giving the answer I am trying very hard not to ask you to let a child ask the questions instead!

A statement clearly only intended to be insulting! :rolleyes:

My question, and yes, it was a question, was not related to ticket-office staffing levels. I’ll try again.

Do you have a problem with union members, or any worker, doing whatever (legally) is within their power to protect their job and maximise their earnings?

(And the second part of the question.)

Even if what they do causes disruption to those that use the service they provide and ultimately ends up passing more costs onto those that use that service?

Re 30

I guess that the answer is no; but, did you ever attend the LSE ? Your Trotskyite claptrap has most of the hallmarks without any polish. Your statements have more holes than the Titanic.

It is pretty obvious that judged by your outrageous and inhuman comments about Lady T that you are no gentleman.

Non jobs include providing assistance, first aid, and emergency support – a self service machine will be utterly useless at any of those things. Seriously, they can get computers to write PR guff these days!
Several years ago I can across an accident involving a bus where the driver was seriously injured and there was no staff member to field the passengers out of the wreckage to safety. Having parked to prevent speeding idiots from crashing into the accident there was a small group of idiot commuters standing in the road discussing how the bus company had left them to fend for themselves by not providing another member of staff to look after them in the event of an accident… The driver died.

So as I understand it your argument for employing sufficient clippies to man 11,000 buses (in London alone) for 7 days a week all-year round is that it might have saved one driver’s life? It does great credit for your humanity, little for your clarity of thought.

Equally the fatuous argument about staff sitting in little armoured boxes on tube stations being essential for first aid and information purposes. I don’t know if you have ever travelled on a tube, but there is invariably a real human stood by the barriers able to fulfil these functions far better than ticket office staff.

Moggy

Now see what you did!

Moggy

Indeed!!!!;)