"Ding Dong The Dinosaur is Dead" ?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26573929?flv=1#

No doubt this thread will run and run now.

So is Tony Benn!

Now see what you did!

Moggy

Snafu – “The lottery winners are, I expect, those ‘fat cats’ who get millions for doing non jobs – those jobs for the boys given by other fat cats in a self-beneficial back scratching exercise…”

For someone who usually posts intelligently and coherently that is quite the stupidest comment you have yet made!

(Any news from Mrs S on the iPhone camera yet, by the way?)

I’m not sure how this gentleman died ? I had heard that he sustained a severe attack of sunstroke as a consequence of a lengthy and some say expensive recent stay at that millionaire’s resort; Cancun, Mexico.

It might be that his stay at this luxurious hideaway was funded from his alleged union salary of circa £140,000 p.a.

According to those parts of the media you obviously don’t take notice of he died from a heart attack.
Yes I believe he did have a holiday recently – because your favourite Daily Heil got its traditional bullocking for papping somebody it failed to prove was sufficiently newsworthy (as it has done repeatedly) despite swearing never to papp again after Diana/Paris/1997.
High wages are something you have not been worried about before (that I’ve noticed, anyway) unless they were connected to bankers (probably). I am not going to be your poster boy for socialism (or, indeed, anything to your left – by which anything short of Hitler in a KKK hoodie is not suitably right wing for you?) but the guy, as I understand, was employed to get results for his unions members. He got results, he got publicity, he got paid.

This coming Sunday, I will be attending Trafalgar Square carrying a black and white Socialist Workers Party banner bearing a picture of the elegant features of a true descendant of Red Robbo. Who will join me ?

You’ll have to watch out for the St Paddy’s parade people. Play nicely, won’t you…

The guy was an elected trade union leader who did a damn good job of looking after HIS members interests, funnily enough that was precisely what his union paid him for.

Now if our politicians of whatever shade, worked half as hard and achieved a quarter as much for their members this country would be a much better place..

Not sure about it being a better place, as such, because there would be politicians involved – but people might be better treated for a change.

Looking after his members interests? He siphoned that much money from HIS members, that he became the wealthy elite that he had spent his life demonizing. The man was a hypocrite of the worst kind.

‘Siphoned’? That sounds like a legal case in the making – hopefully you have all the proof with your legal team because defamation of character is easily defined thus: under common law, to constitute defamation, a claim must generally be false and have been made to someone other than the person defamed.
Next of kin can be very protective of the recently deceased and their reputation…

Silver fox do you drive a tube? Good riddance to the commie loud mouth hypocrite.

Whether he does or doesn’t, at some point you would undoubtedly complain about the number of unemployed hanging around, not working, not paying taxes, with no hope of employment in their most recent career field because somebody decided to make the world a more dangerous place (remember the Kings Cross tube station fire? It was found that staff were given little or no training about what to do in the event of a fire, and that there were too few on duty at the time. Lots of resignations all round!).
Underground trains still have accidents with a driver aboard – why should that change because there is no driver?
You lot complain about using the self service tills in supermarkets, yet when the counter staff on the underground try to save their jobs from (effectively) a self service machine by using the only thing that the management will take notice of (ie their union) they are whitewashed as being commies, blah blah blah.
You in the managements pocket much?

Just for fun let’s try a few facts, the guy’s salary was actually £89,805, plus payments to his pension fund based on results, now considering that under his stewardship membership of the RMT rose from 57,000 in 2002 to 80,000 in 2008, I would imagine that would be substantial.

No matter what, his job was looking after the interests of his members, as far as I can tell he did that very well, just what did any of you expect him to do?

Forget it. They would be complaining about the guy being over paid if he’d done it as an unpaid volunteer…

Re 13

Just for fun here’s another fact. Yes, he certainly looked after his members interests and he certainly did not look after his commuters interests.

So we know where his prime loyalty lay.

Why do you think there are staff present at any job serving the public? Yes they would be selling you a ticket, but they would be there to assist in the event of an ‘incident’ (see mention of Kings Cross disaster, above) and when there is no one about because the tube station has just three members of staff on duty and they were all deceased in the initial event – what happens to the unsuspecting travelling public? 31 people died at Kings Cross, and whilst there is now no smoking, no wooden escalators and no facility for flash-fire on the underground there is nothing to show that the public would not be directed into the danger zone again by staff who would no longer be there. Still, you lot will undoubtedly moan about the compensation culture when the next of kin sue…

His remarks about the demise of Lady T damned him in many eyes.

Many? Did you not live in Britain in the Thatcher era? Her grave (when found) is destined to be the most popular public convenience in Britain – so I imagine that the damned would have been preserved in a grave of urine, had she not been cremated and the ashes interred at the Royal Hospital Chelsea, beneath a stone not really big enough to dance on.
I haven’t seen or heard his remarks, but they wouldn’t have been any different to those made by ‘many’ of people who were affected by policies made to protect Thatchers friends and family. They say the rich got richer and the poor got poorer – were you related by any chance?

So you have no problem with union members, or any worker, doing whatever (legally) is within their power to protect their job and maximise their earnings; even if it causes disruption to those that use the service they provide and ultimately ends up passing more costs onto those that use that service?

Strewth! Read the first part of your sentence, then have someone else explain it to you. Really, I’m not trying to be insulting but when you’ve posed a question by giving the answer I am trying very hard not to ask you to let a child ask the questions instead!
Striking was i/ to save their jobs, ii/ to protect their jobs, iii/ to make others aware that there was a proposal to cut or reduce staffing levels to what is either considered a dangerous safety level (unions and apparently H&S examiners) or whatever the management think (having not responded to the H&S people, and of course the union concerns don’t count where profit is debated). Whether you understand or not the fact that commuters where ‘inconvenienced’ makes them aware of what is happening; ok, it would make the strikers unpopular with some, but tube management will be asked why they let the situation get to a point like that and why are they not communicating and trying to strike a deal? Commuter anger hits both sides in the dispute…

The recent fuss about closing ticket offices is typical. That was all about protecting non-jobs. I can recall identical wailing and breast-beating as the buses phased out clippies and that doesn’t seem to have worked out badly.

Non jobs include providing assistance, first aid, and emergency support – a self service machine will be utterly useless at any of those things. Seriously, they can get computers to write PR guff these days!
Several years ago I can across an accident involving a bus where the driver was seriously injured and there was no staff member to field the passengers out of the wreckage to safety. Having parked to prevent speeding idiots from crashing into the accident there was a small group of idiot commuters standing in the road discussing how the bus company had left them to fend for themselves by not providing another member of staff to look after them in the event of an accident… The driver died.

Driverless trains are being proposed for the London Underground!

Makes your heart beat just that little bit faster with joy, don’t it?[/sarcasm]

And lets not forget while earning all this cash he was living in a Housing association home, thus preventing someone more needy from benefitting from it… good riddance i say.

I believe it was the family home, the place he was brought up in, and had been a council house; under the regulations in place he was entitled to live there.

Tony,

He had to somehow show that he was a man of the people. 140K per annum tended to disqualify him somewhat !

140k or 89k (his actual salary – displaying your utter ignorance by misquoting the facts as per the Daily Heil doesn’t make it correct) yet he still couldn’t afford to own a home in London; doesn’t that say something about society today?

What a bizarre comment. We only pay for lottery winners if we buy lottery tickets, which we do in the vain hope we might become “non job fat cat lottery winners”! Whatever that is supposed to mean.

Good luck to the winners!

Charlie, I expected more, so much more, from you.
The lottery winners are, I expect, those ‘fat cats’ who get millions for doing non jobs – those jobs for the boys given by other fat cats in a self-beneficial back scratching exercise…

Re 25

I’m tugging my forelock in recognition of your expertise in ‘sweeping statements’, sense of entitlement and expectations that the world owes you a living…. Blah blah blah.

Zzzzzzzzzz

Blah blah blah…I could go on but, what is the point. Don’t spout your Marxist inspired claptrap to me. It’s offensive. Uncontrolled trade unionism is as evil as uncontrolled capitalism but without the ability to create genuine jobs – only non jobs.

If you don’t agree with it, its Marxist. Says it all, really.

Uncontrolled capitalism does not help anyone but those at the top who control the reigns – need I mention food banks for the poor, since you don’t care about anyone but yourself and anyone you can brown nose!

I’m now retired, for most of my working life was in private sector in a job very much paid by results, finished as a manager (a real manager by the way) employing the staff for my department and responsible for the results, I have never had the belief that anyone owes me a living, all that I am trying to do is show another view.

It’s all very well blaming unions for all the ills of the country, particularly as it isn’t true, of course the unions are going to come into conflict with employers, come on how many employers offer the rank and file work force better pay and conditions voluntarily?

Strange using the dockers as an example, remember the “dockers pen” where dock workers turned up hoping that an overseer would select them for work that day, hoping that it would be a big ship with a full cargo for this port and they would get the unload and load, guarantee work for a couple of days. A thought for everyone, Halewood ex Ford car factory in Liverpool, terrible labour relations for years, unions and workforce derided, now look at the same factory, same union, same workforce, now Jaguar/Land Rover, moving forward, increasing production, taking on more staff, only change is new management, does that not tell us all something.

As far as Marxist claptrap is concerned you are making some wild assumptions there, strange to say I actually agree with your last statement that unbridled trade unionism or socialism is as dangerous as unbridled capitalism.

Finally knowing how anti trade union and Labour this forum is, I have enjoyed myself immensely.

Re 25

I’m tugging my forelock in recognition of your expertise in ‘sweeping statements’, sense of entitlement and expectations that the world owes you a living.

Setting to one side State sponsored employment which had its own particular union inspired ‘jobs for the boys’ for ever and ever amen, in many cases (the docks come to mind) stretching to family members and relatives yea, even unto the umpteenth generation, the only other wealth (employment) generators were the entrepreneurs.

They provided and the unions derided ! Oh ! There was protectionism and then some in the trade unions. But, as with most imperfect things devised by man, the unions were very imperfect.

Taking stock of Gt. Britain Ltd to-day, I cannot think of one single instance when any union acted altruistically for the benefit of the country and the greater good – can you ? For Heaven’s sake the unions even encouraged strike action during WW2 when we were really up against it and required industry to operate unconditionally 24/7. Did the unions see it that way? Did they hell.

My newspaper now tells me that we are reduced to importing teachers into our travesty of an education system from China – a third world country ! They are here to teach our youngsters how to read, write and add up. What a disgrace. And why ? Because of entrenched, trade union sponsored, socialist nihilists – I won’t refer to them as educationalists.

I could go on but, what is the point. Don’t spout your Marxist inspired claptrap to me. It’s offensive. Uncontrolled trade unionism is as evil as uncontrolled capitalism but without the ability to create genuine jobs – only non jobs.

…if a service costs a little more would much prefer it going to keeping someone in a job on relatively modest income, rather than contributing to the £multi million annual lottery wins of the real non job fat cats, remember directly or indirectly we pay for them as well.

But if the ‘non-job fat-cats’ had a union you wouldn’t criticize their salaries, right??? 😉

What a bizarre comment. We only pay for lottery winners if we buy lottery tickets, which we do in the vain hope we might become “non job fat cat lottery winners”! Whatever that is supposed to mean.

Good luck to the winners!

The recent fuss about closing ticket offices is typical. That was all about protecting non-jobs. I can recall identical wailing and breast-beating as the buses phased out clippies and that doesn’t seem to have worked out badly.

It’s a wonder tube trains don’t have stokers.

Moggy

There is bound to be some protectionism or even ludditism (is that a word I wonder) within the union structure, what you see as a brake on progress, inconvenience or hanging on to non jobs, to someone else this means keeping his/her job and income, the rights and wrongs are very dependant on were you are at the moment.

Let’s not forget without the unions most of us would still be at tugging the forelock and bending the knee stage, must add if a service costs a little more would much prefer it going to keeping someone in a job on relatively modest income, rather than contributing to the £multi million annual lottery wins of the real non job fat cats, remember directly or indirectly we pay for them as well.

Tony,

He had to somehow show that he was a man of the people. 140K per annum tended to disqualify him somewhat !

And lets not forget while earning all this cash he was living in a Housing association home, thus preventing someone more needy from benefitting from it… good riddance i say.

But not canonised..yet.

Ah ! The Blessed Benn – another of my working class heroes. Tea anyone ?

So is Tony Benn!

Swift rehabilitation looms ! St. Bob wasn’t all bad. He was anti EU !

Much of the tube in London and around the world use ATO systems with drivers in place only for emergencies. The system is being expanded and will be used on Crossrail.

Driverless trains are being proposed for the London Underground!

The recent fuss about closing ticket offices is typical. That was all about protecting non-jobs. I can recall identical wailing and breast-beating as the buses phased out clippies and that doesn’t seem to have worked out badly.

It’s a wonder tube trains don’t have stokers.

Moggy

No matter what, his job was looking after the interests of his members, as far as I can tell he did that very well, just what did any of you expect him to do?

So you have no problem with union members, or any worker, doing whatever (legally) is within their power to protect their job and maximise their earnings; even if it causes disruption to those that use the service they provide and ultimately ends up passing more costs onto those that use that service?

Re 13

Just for fun here’s another fact. Yes, he certainly looked after his members interests and he certainly did not look after his commuters interests.

So we know where his prime loyalty lay. But then, for 140K paid by his masters what did anyone expect. He was a ‘dinosaur’. He occupied the position of the harlot; power, without responsibility.

His remarks about the demise of Lady T damned him in many eyes.