EU mentally deranged

Folks, let me say a couple of things about the EU:

# First, were it comes from:
That thing we call EU today started as the Franco-German organisation to drain as much vigor as possible from Germany, so that Germany would never again (at least in our lifetime) be the dominant power in Europe. Germany’s elites consented, because that was a way to avoid open reparations and was in line with their ideology. But it was traitorous in more than one way. (And there were alternatives during Adenauer’s chancellorship!). And reperations they didn’t avoid either – just look at the EU budget in detail.

# Second, what it currently is:
Currently it is France’s vehicle for French grandeur and for challenging the Anglo-Saxon world order (that’s why I wrote “tries to win the seven years war”). The building-myth and cramp of the EU “Germany is evil” is currently replaced by “the USA is evil”. But there is no vision where this all should lead, apart from more bureaucrats to patronize and if needed suppress the people, all to nourish a questionable elite. Some other states support this out of fear of a strong Germany (like the Netherlands, Belgium), some other states are in the EU because they fear a Russian awakening (like Poland and the Baltics), some are in the club to get as much money as possible, but otherwise tell the rest F.U.! (like Italy, Spain, Greece). I say take the money out of the EU and see what remains as its salience and charakter and uniting idea!

# What the future holds (not now, not in ten years, but in 50 years):
Option 0 — EU falls apart, some nation states remain, other merge/are subdued.
Option 1 — The destiny of a French dominated EU is war against Anglo-Saxon North America (itself threatened by ethnic conflicts, so questionable how long it will remain in the current shape). War not necessarily with the sword, although that is not totally out of question. There can be only one, as the saying goes. Europe and the USA are too big and have too similar needs to share a common planet. One will enforce its will on the other. There is no future on an equal basis. That is nature’s law. It is like the USSR; it all comes down to war, and if you’re not successful in breaking the 300 years old grip of the Anglo-Saxon race on the world or not go to war at all, it all makes no sense. History repeats itself and the big cycles are not broken!
Option 2 — The European nation states are dissolved with everything that is “national” (parliaments, kings, presidents, armies, soccer teams, …) and only their autonomous provinces enter into a federation or kind of “Reich”, which could and should also include other provinces from other white/christian continents (Russia, North America, Australia, New Zealand). That would be something everybody could support. But I don’t think it will happen.

# Why do I bash the French?
— Because the national interests of France are not compatible with the European idea; they will never dissolve their nation state, which is what would be neccessary to make the EU a success.
— Because they use the EU as a vehicle for their shady interests, which are not the interests of the other European peoples.
— Because they promote the division between the Anglo-Saxon world and the European peoples, hurting both in the way, hurting white men and white civilisation.
— Because their vision of the EU (founded in their historic conception of “the state”) makes them the enemy of everybody who wants to live in a society were a man’s own achievements count, not who his father was or who his friends are. That’s why I wrote Catholic tradition. It is the question of individual vs. society vs. the state. There is no tradition of personal freedom in France. And not in most of the rest of Europe either. That has a lot to do with Protestant vs Catholic views of society. (And the U.S. goes full steam ahead to lose it, and I don’t mean Bush, it started centuries ago).
— Because they are setting the EU on a path leading to a new kind of feudalism.
— Because the EU is not a positive, optimistic organisation, and the French way of conducting a nation’s business is one of the prime reasons for this.
— Because, because, because.

# And finally: I’m not English, as some might assume. I’m German/Texan.

And now go ahead! Call me nuts, racist, xenophobic, hydrophobic, etc …

Phil,

It’s not an argument , it’s an interesting discussion.
First of all you’re right when you say that Paris is ignoring ( at least this gov) the rules of the Euro. (so do UK , Germany , and NL).
You may say “What does UK has to do with Euro?” but amazlingly London commited to follow the ” stability pact”.

Anyway, you’re correct when you state that we are heading a Federal state.
You’re also correct when you say that your gov isn’t listening to what people want. If I can make you a bit more confortable , please note than it’s the same here.

I’m still convince that a European Federal state is the best solution for us. If we consider the US model it seems to me that each state has a large autonomy in the way they manage their own business.

And please don’t consider my prose as an anti UK thing , it’s nothing but an attempt to understand your views guys a little better.

The government may have committed to the stabilty pact but in the knowledge that they did not have the mandate of the electorate. That one is biting them on the arse now because the electorate is telling them in no uncertain terms that if they do this without our permission, they are out, they will be committing political suicide. The crunch question is why are the British so hostile and the answer to this has been give many times in many different explanations yet all saying the same thing. Europe is undemocratic and therefore a retrograde step in the grand scheme of European progression and worst of all some people were not even trusted with a choice before it was instigated. Britain is arguably one of the oldest democracies, don’t scoff I can qualify the statement. When I say democracy I use it in the loosest terms with regard to when it all began but like all other things in the world it has progressed and evolved into something that any other democracy can recognise and appeal to. This brings us back to the European commissioners. Who are they and what do they do? Who pays them and who elected them. If they have no role why do they have a job?

European commissioners are only the tip of the undemocratic iceberg and our reservations do not end there. We already have a superpower and a hyperpower why do we need another one? Haven’t we learnt anything? It strikes me that the only real reason to embark on the European train is to prevent a future European war (it has been mentioned) and I want to know why this is a possibility. Yet even if a European war is unavoidable if we do not have complete federal European integration then so to is a confrontation, at a later stage between superpowers. Europe and the USA do not get along at the best of times I’d hate to see them squaring up in some distant future dragging in my children and my grand children. It is simply not acceptable and as for another European war? Making it federal and integrated will not discount the possibility of war even if it was a civil one.

I’m sorry I have racked my brains to try to explain this and what I write never seems to get my point across. I have said I do not feel superior to Europeans yet I do not feel inferior either I see no difference but a federal Europe is not acceptable to me and as an aside, if the UK is embargoed by Europe as a result of a possible withdrawal from the EU, it would be legally and morally wrong. It would also be economically disasterous to many campanies both in Britain and the EU and politically inept. Which I suppose makes the possibilty almost inevitable.

Phil,

It’s not an argument , it’s an interesting discussion.
First of all you’re right when you say that Paris is ignoring ( at least this gov) the rules of the Euro. (so do UK , Germany , and NL).
You may say “What does UK has to do with Euro?” but amazlingly London commited to follow the ” stability pact”.

Anyway, you’re correct when you state that we are heading a Federal state.
You’re also correct when you say that your gov isn’t listening to what people want. If I can make you a bit more confortable , please note than it’s the same here.

I’m still convince that a European Federal state is the best solution for us. If we consider the US model it seems to me that each state has a large autonomy in the way they manage their own business.

And please don’t consider my prose as an anti UK thing , it’s nothing but an attempt to understand your views guys a little better.

France doesn’t want Britain in the EU. I personnally think that UK in the EU now is a major problem. Since day one when UK joined the EU , UK has been reluctant to play with the rules. I know that most of the poulation think like me.

You guys want to be out : fine that is your right. You are a democracy ( a good one BTW) , so put the pression on your politicians to make it happen. That is as simple as this.

Don’t get me wrong , I have nothing against the UK, just I’m a pro EU , and we need to move forward. If one or more countries are permanently pushing on the brakes , that’s a major issue.

Reluctant to play with the rules? Thats rich coming from a Frenchman! 😮

The French vote for every peice of legislature in Brussels because they haven’t the slightest intention of abiding by any of it. That is just one of the things the UK has against the EU as it stands. If we transgress the slightest ruling from Brussels the first people to point it out to us and pile on the pressure is Paris and yet Paris are the ones who ignore European laws from the outset. Better than that they let everybody know it in no uncertain terms and yet nothing at all seems to get done about it.

Geforce you have changed your tune. Was it the knowledge that some people did not agree with your view on Europe that turned you against the British? Since when did you become a Eurosceptic? Try to be consistent, try to be fair and unbias and try to listen and take on board our hopes and fears for Europe because if you do not we can only assume that European, especially French intentions towards Britain (which judging by the last few posts and completely unprovoked are subtly hostile) are rather less than honourable. Its interesting that your hostility and distaste does not extend to Denmark, Norway, Sweden etc, why do you single out the British?

In general we do not want to be a part of a European Federal Superstate. You may argue this is not the case and this will never happen. I have to disagree, there will be a federal Europe but we keep reminding you that when we voted to join the EEC we voted to join the EEC, not what we have today where Brussels wants control over our imigration policy, economy, defence, laws, taxation etc and only when we argued against this di we start to realise where this whole thing was leading. Somewhere we are not yet ready to go.

Now do me a favour this is an argument started by an American and perpetuated by a European. I do not remember any Brits joining in until Hand decided to insult our food and I still don’t understand where that one came from, Distiller was talking about Portugal but for some unfathomable reason, Britain got caught in the crossfire. FFS leave us out of your petty squabbling will you?

Whoa, I dont blame anyone except ourselves for the asylum crisis. The problem is Blair wants the asylum vote so he does little about it. I would do exactly the same as the French if I was them (let them through the channel tunnel pretty easily).

Explain this to me. Why do the French want Britain in Europe? I think I know the answer, I would like to hear what you guys have to say.

France doesn’t want Britain in the EU. I personnally think that UK in the EU now is a major problem. Since day one when UK joined the EU , UK has been reluctant to play with the rules. I know that most of the poulation think like me.

You guys want to be out : fine that is your right. You are a democracy ( a good one BTW) , so put the pression on your politicians to make it happen. That is as simple as this.

Don’t get me wrong , I have nothing against the UK, just I’m a pro EU , and we need to move forward. If one or more countries are permanently pushing on the brakes , that’s a major issue.

Well, what ever the EU is, it’s a bureaucratic monstrosity. Talk about poor voter turnout. Maybe its understandable. Who cares about voting for an organization where no one is sure who is in charge about what. :confused:

Sauron

that’s the problem with a democrazy and a yropian union.. what they need is two leaders who dictate everything.. one with a long white beard, and the other a giant floating eyeball.

I nominate you Sauron to be the giant floating eyeball, and Kdrafat to be the guy with the long white beard.

Well, what ever the EU is, it’s a bureaucratic monstrosity. Talk about poor voter turnout. Maybe its understandable. Who cares about voting for an organization where no one is sure who is in charge about what. :confused:

Sauron

Mindoh. I don’t have any figures but there were a small number British prisoners of war who defected and became members of the SS. Yes they were very few and it is not clear if any of them survived the war. The consensus is that most of the foreign troops such as the French, British etc who did defect, died on the eastern front during or after the war and during the final battle for Berlin. Its a sad and uncomfortable truth but there it is. These idiots were akin to modern football hooligans and many were members of the BUF before the war so they were not much of a loss to us.

Strangely enough they all seemed to survive the war, and most of them were regarded as nothing more than embarrassments to be swept under the carpet. A couple were given life sentences: all were free by the mid 1950s. Those from the ‘colonies’ generally were given suspended sentences, aquittals, or fines for being traitors (although not against their own countries), although apparently the Australians involved were just repatriated.
Their unit, the British Free Corps (BFC), was nothing more than a propaganda unit designed to help ‘weak’ minded PoWs join up in the fight against communism (sound familiar?) to prove to cinema goers in occupied and neutral countries that the Nazis had the backing of all in Europe. Also there was the chance that if British troops were known to be fighting and dying on the eastern front against the Russians this could force a wedge between Stalin and Britain (in addition to his gripe that Russia was the only one suffering at that time of the war). The BFC probably never had fifty members in total for the entire war, its potential troops either proving to be unfit for service, mentally unstable (having been bullied throughout their military careers into doing things, for example), criminally unsound, or (and there were lots who claimed it but very few were able to prove it) only there to sabotage it; of course the promise of better rations and the chance to fratronise with women was a major incentive in recruiting those who didn’t care one way or the other.

Flood.™

We don’t want Britain in Europe. Personally I’d prefer if they drop out, and let the rest move on. If Britain is in the EU that’s because it wants to be in it, the EU has no legal measures to keep it in the union though. Blair should just say “Sorry guys we gotta go, change of course”. If the people of the UK are in the EU against their will, that’s the fault of their own politicians, not of France or the rest of Europe. You just can’t move your problems across the chanel, that’s a bit too easy. However, the current “rage” against the EU has more to do with internal problems in the UK. It’s ofcourse so much easier to blame France/Belgium/Netherlands rather than handling your own problems with for instance asylum seakers. I’m tired of having to hear the sh!t about everyone being responsible except the UK itself. In fact, I hope they drop out!! Really, the UK is not “paradise” for the average continental European. It’s not like the living standards are so much higher and we want to move there or even worse, use your money. Been to the UK, have to say, fine people, but have seen poverty as much as in the rest of Europe. So there’s no simple reason why Britain would be any different from the rest of the continent. If there’s one country which has paid more so far than getting any, it must be Germany. Look, I am Eurosceptic myself, as I don’t like to current situation in Brussels which is about 180% degrees of what I think the EU should be. However, this is not about scepticism anymore, this is pure xenophobic non-sence, for the sake of argument. Bashing the EU is just “fashion” these days. It’s a problem not only in the UK but in the whole old world: cynism. At least there’s one thing I really admire from the Americans: they believe in something, they are not the same cynist weenies we are turning into. Bash the EU, bash the mailman for delivering the post too late … goddamned, we act like spoiled little children, in our playgrond called ‘Abendland’. Can’t we be happy for once, and admit that life’s good these days. 😡 We even have a political party to satisfy the “unsatisfied”: Vlaams Blok. It’s not their right wing propositions that bother me, it’s their annoying way of blaming everything on others, be it immigrants, French speaking, politicians or even your next door neigbour. Strange enough however, the same people who are “unsatisfied” are the ones living from welfare, social aid … bashing the jews is a bit undone these days so lets all blame Brussels and move on to a happy, healty community.

Explain this to me. Why do the French want Britain in Europe? I think I know the answer, I would like to hear what you guys have to say.

Hold on Hand he didn’t mention Britain its only polite that you don’t either.

Dis. Are you just being an idiot again? What did the Portugese do to anger you and inccur your wrath? From your description of the country it appears that you are living up to the usual US Imperial attitude towards other countries based purely on cultural stereotypes. None of which are remotely true to real life. Beleive me it doesn’t make you seem clever it makes you look like a prat.

You’re right , maybe I overreacted …

yes, very usual oh great and righteous ones… :rolleyes:

In Distiller’s case, if the cap fits………………… 😉

usual US Imperial attitude.

yes, very usual oh great and righteous ones… :rolleyes:

I agree with most of what you say, however, I am not willing to become one country with other countries who have citizens calling our country un-important. I have not said that the French resistance were not important in the war, that is purely an assumption. I have nothing but respect for ALL of those that gave their lives or fought against the Nazi movement, however, there was a large percentage (as no figures are ever correct unless they are on your side) of the French who did join with the Nazis. If the UK had been like that then it is most likely we would not be here, and if we were here then we would all be worshiping Hitler. Sure many fought the Germans, but a HUGE amount of them sided with the Germans. If that in your opinion is being clever/wise then be it, im just glad the British didnt take that stance like many of the French did.

Mindoh. I don’t have any figures but there were a small number British prisoners of war who defected and became members of the SS. Yes they were very few and it is not clear if any of them survived the war. The consensus is that most of the foreign troops such as the French, British etc who did defect, died on the eastern front during or after the war and during the final battle for Berlin. Its a sad and uncomfortable truth but there it is. These idiots were akin to modern football hooligans and many were members of the BUF before the war so they were not much of a loss to us.

I guess you should see a Doctor my dear !!! :rolleyes:

About Portuguese food: well I had both food in England and Portugal , and guess what’s my favorite one?

So you’r theory is : France wants to screw up EU and England wants to improve it? Thanks for the good laugh 😮
About the rest of your prose it’s just pathetic …

Hold on Hand he didn’t mention Britain its only polite that you don’t either.

Dis. Are you just being an idiot again? What did the Portugese do to anger you and inccur your wrath? From your description of the country it appears that you are living up to the usual US Imperial attitude towards other countries based purely on cultural stereotypes. None of which are remotely true to real life. Beleive me it doesn’t make you seem clever it makes you look like a prat.

Look at the Soviet stance to the Nazi invasion and you might see how certain people would react to those who were left behind… Minidohs ideas seem very similar to those of Stalin – if you didn’t fight and die when the invasion rolled over you then you must have been a collaborator. There is no grey in his world: it is plain old black and white. Still, it is a marvellous way to rule the newly reliberated population – make them fear that they could be picked up for collaborating unless they inform on their neighbours… Thank god he isn’t in power.

Are we having fun yet?

Flood.™

I agree with most of what you say, however, I am not willing to become one country with other countries who have citizens calling our country un-important. I have not said that the French resistance were not important in the war, that is purely an assumption. I have nothing but respect for ALL of those that gave their lives or fought against the Nazi movement, however, there was a large percentage (as no figures are ever correct unless they are on your side) of the French who did join with the Nazis. If the UK had been like that then it is most likely we would not be here, and if we were here then we would all be worshiping Hitler. Sure many fought the Germans, but a HUGE amount of them sided with the Germans. If that in your opinion is being clever/wise then be it, im just glad the British didnt take that stance like many of the French did.

It’s very hard to get accurate figures.
What we know for sure because of the archives : 30000 people joined the milice and were actively collaborating with the nazi. Those forces were even more active than the German themselves.

A lot of people took the opportunity of the jewes hunting and of the repression to blackmail a neighbor , a “friend” or whoever.

Most of them were passive and just tried to survive.

Dig a bit in the archives ,(a lot of them are in English), and you will find out that things are not that simple.
The British didn’t take that stance because there WEREN’T invaded. Who knows what would happen then.

I agree with most of what you say, however, I am not willing to become one country with other countries who have citizens calling our country un-important. I have not said that the French resistance were not important in the war, that is purely an assumption. I have nothing but respect for ALL of those that gave their lives or fought against the Nazi movement, however, there was a large percentage (as no figures are ever correct unless they are on your side) of the French who did join with the Nazis. If the UK had been like that then it is most likely we would not be here, and if we were here then we would all be worshiping Hitler. Sure many fought the Germans, but a HUGE amount of them sided with the Germans. If that in your opinion is being clever/wise then be it, im just glad the British didnt take that stance like many of the French did.

Look, since the Prussio-French war of 1870 the climate in Europe has changed into nationalism. Not only in Germany, also in France (Action française), Belgium etc. It would be wrong to blame one nation for invading and the other for collaborating. In fact, when WWI started, no one could have imagined it was Germany who triggered the war (in fact it was Austria but OK). Even Belgium had plans of invading the Netherlands (Gentlemen, I sh!t you not). And after WWI there was an even worse situation (nationalism + fascism –> national socialism) which eventually led to WWII. History in a nutshel.
You can’t just compare these situations to the present situation and call the French collaborationists. The UK would have done the same under given circumenstances.
My grandad was no “war-hero”. He fled to France in order to save his wife and family. Some weeks later France was also captured and he had to return to work in a German factory. So excuse me, but most people have relatives who fought in the world wars or at least, suffered heavily from it. Well, if that is a motive to become xenophobic towards other countries 😡