Flypast (Sep): "Iraqi Fury UK-bound?"

After all this time, where is it? The RLC chap dismantling it thought it was going to Duxford. Try as I can by searching the web, I can not find trace of it. A lot of things get taken a trophies during war, and I dont wish to comment on that. Would just be interested as to any progress on it.

Flood. Well said, A nicely thought out post and one which im in full agreement with.

…and yes. A snog is out of the question, there must be someone on the forum who’ll oblige 🙂

– steve

Flood

Can I have some of what you are on please.

Steve Young – the “Its theft / No its not” argument is because some people don’t think that we should make off with something that is not ours whilst others think that because it is old this argument shouldn’t count – now imagine that the people who want to take it away without asking were joyriders and that it is not a Fury but your own car. Dunno about you but if it was my car I would rather like to clock the little blighters with my monopod.
Anyway.
So we must steal something – or some things – to save it.
Hmm.
But these bits and pieces are, apparently, safe in the hands of the military (complete with an 18 Sqn zap – which is slightly better than a bullet hole or ten I suppose). So because it is now in a safe place it needs to be saved again? Or is it just that it is perceived to be in danger purely because it is in Iraq – where it has safely been for the last 50-odd years.

But, quote, “the most sensible (and non-emotional) post on this thread ” still advocates bringing something back to Britain that isn’t ours to bring, repairing it without stating where the finance is going to come from (Have you got deep pockets? That is remarkably altruistic of you! Or maybe the lottery will pay? Have you got a team of black one-legged lesbian dwarves fully trained as aviation mechanics hidden away somewhere? Dream on), then flying it/them (did I miss where the other one came into this debate?) in Iraqi colours, blah blah blah. And who, do you think, is going do all that? Not the military (no money!); which generous and rich enthusiast have you got hiding up your sleeve? Can see you lot whinging and moaning and complaining like mad because it gets the Red Bull treatment!

Is it the most sensible post because it totally agrees with your view point?

Obviously I am a rabid maniac because I am getting emotional over this. Watch me foam at the mouth as I put my point across. Listen to it. Think about it. Put yourself in the shoes of someone else and then have another think. Do you see where that view point is coming from? I can see yours, appreciate and understand it, but can you see mine? I know that, to me, your viewpoint is totally wrong, but can you see why I think that? Now put yourself in the shoes (sandals? Tasteless joke. You can feel better about yourselves that I made that coment!) of an Iraqi. Think about it from their angle. Think about how obscene they must think it is that a bunch of nutters are arguing over a pile of scrap metal whilst people are dying from unexploded cluster bombs that nobody wants to tidy away. Think about what they might say if suddenly confronted with the fact that this pile of scrap metal is really worth a lot of dollars to some in the west, but some actually want them to believe that they would happily take this rich horde of scrap metal away – for nothing – and return it in pristine condition – for nothing. If you were them what would you think?

Ok, enough of the reasoned approach: RANT TIME!

Now, I know that we went to war. No way can it be classed as a police action (whatever that is – but Vietnam was one, apparently). But as a war it was a little bit different from previous wars – the allied forces did not declare war on the people but on the leadership. Previous Gulf ‘trophies’ have been taken back because they were left on allied ground or to deprive Saddam of their use when we pulled back (all those tanks/APCs/helo’s in ’91). In the Falklands all those Pucaras and Hueys were left behind by the belligerent force upon its surrender. This time Iraq was over run with ease and few casualties – the people even welcomed the invading troops – and yet we still act like the all-conquering barbarians that they were told we were. Fine, to you it might just be an old aeroplane you want to care for; to them it probably is just a heap of junk, but to anyone who wants to stir up trouble they could point to those still flying in America and scream that they were stolen from the people (after all, who got the money for them? I am not implying anything underhand did take place, but what if they were actually just bought from a crooked base commander? Things have been repossessed before now at the first whiff of such corruption) and now we have come back to steal the rest away. Does that make sense?
People in the middle east don’t like America – and therefore also don’t like Britain either. Yesterday 2 Iraqis and 2 Saudis were arrested for putting a bomb in a shrine and murdering lots of people (despite the Saudi government making annoyed noises when someone implied that there is Saudis fighting against the Americans in Iraq. Or something). Iran might be mellowing (in comparison to how it used to be!) at the moment but there are any number of other nations in the area who think they have a bone to pick with the west – look at the USS Cole; suicide bombed in Yemen in 2000. Westerners have been shot at all over the area, Kuwait included – we are not popular. The bad guys are much better organised now than when we were trampling around in full offensive colonial mode (C18-C19), and in comparision we are quite friendly now, but they still think that we are a threat to them and want us away from there.
Now, I heard recently that whilst in Saudi Arabia the unthinking US Army decided to try and organise a tour to Mecca for their bored troops. That is one hell of a big no-no in such a religious country but it took a lot of persuading to convince the brass hat in charge that this would do more damage to their reputation than if a tank went amok and blatantly flattened a line of school boys (girls don’t get a great deal of education in Saudi). There were apparently other things too (drunkenness, provocative sexual display, deliberate nudity, offensive behaviour, etc), but now the US forces have left the situation might cool down.
My point here is that westerners have a habit of upsetting the locals when we go abroad. In the past we have taken things (Elgin Marbles, Cleopatra’s Needle, umpteen Mummys, statues, monuments, and probably the entire foreign collection in the British Museum) but that was history; we used to conduct ourselves in that kind of manner and damn what ‘Johnny Foreigner’ thought. Now we blunder in and unthinkingly do as we would at home when the local people have a entirely different way of behaving (unless it is a holiday in Greece when we have a quiet drink and the local police arrest us for our shirts falling off… NOT!). We force our morals on them, our entertainment, our food, our way of life, in an effort to apparently civilise them. Anyone surprised that they don’t like it? Strangely its only the Americans who are surprised; they want beer, moan about how the burgers aren’t the same as back home, complain at how much had been censored from the films on local TV, taunt the local population about any number of things, but are happiest when asking the government appointed guide/translator/official censor to chat the local women up for them or demand to know where the local lap dancing clubs are. One, seemingly for a laugh, demands roast pork at every meal – except breakfast when he wants bacon. Offensive? I have no doubts at all as to why a fair proportion of the world doesn’t want us around. And, to the locals in Iraq, just taking the Fury – no matter how well intentioned you think it would be, how ever much you insist that it would be returned to them in A1 condition – would come as another example of the heavy footed basket-ball boot of western culture stamping down on them. If you really must have it, if you just can not live with out it, then wait for them to sell it because then at least we will have a cover note (of sorts) which says we did not steal it, we did not come over all heavy handed.
RANT OFF!

So. What do you think? Do you now see it as I see? Or do you still think that we should ignore the sensible approach and snatch it away just the same- and enforce their cultural stereotype of us.

All that and I never mentioned the Twin Pioneer. Doh!
Mini rant!
The Twin Pins condition is due to it being written off thirty-odd years ago, and it was thought long dead. Yes, it did come as a pleasant surprise (It was known that there were still Furies in Iraq – but not the Twin Pin). No, it is not going to be in good condition; even less so after the yanks have demonstrated their good ole American hospitality on it, so maybe it is in a much more precarious state and should be rescued forthwith. Never happen though.
End of mini rant.

I would still like to be friends with you lot but I know that you will never write, never phone, and claim to be washing your hair whenever I ask if you fancy going out.
Huh, I suppose a snog is right out of the question!!!
(Did think about putting shag there but what would I do with a green cormorant?)

Flood.

PS – Sorry, Kenneth, I put a lot of time and effort into this and then find you have managed to put in a couple of points first that I had thought of too. I should type a bit quicker! David Tallichet is probably waiting for the market price to rise, like the good dealer that he might be, when a few more have suffered accidents. If he is not down to his last million or so then it could be worth his wait!

Just some basic questions without going into the question of where they should go/remain:

Even if they were going to be “liberated” (the Sea Furies) who in the UK would want them? Which museum has ressources that it would want to spend on restoring them? Hendon? No, they got rid of one already. Yeovilton? They already have (at least?) one. As for the warbird collectors, the amount of them flying or being restored in the UK seems to indicate that they are not that interested in them. Which is probably why David Tallichet still has two untouched examples of the original batch from Iraq.

Originally posted by scott c
Ok

The answer is easy bring the furies back to uk rebuild one to static and return it to an museum in iraq. And rebuild the other to fly here in uk in iraqi markings which could also be flown in iraq.

Scott C

Hear hear! The most sensible (and non-emotional) post on this thread.

We’re all on here because we care about historic aviation, right?

So what’s with the “Its theft / No its not” argument?

Surely we’ve all seen the photo’s that came out of Iraq in the immediate aftermath of the official hostilities? First photo’s showed relatively intact Furies and Twin Pin. Next photo’s, only about a week or two later, showed the same aeroplanes, but in worse conditions due in no small part to the actions of the Allied troops which have ‘liberated’ them. Pitch up, see some knackered old piece of cr@p (this is the perception of the average grunt – believe me, I’ve been one), and decide that it probably won’t hurt anyone to blat a few rounds into it, just to show the locals that we’re capable of firing off our guns in celebration too. Oh but before we do, we’ll have the rudder off it to hang in the mess back in Blighty / TheGoodOldUSofA.

Can’t remember the exact details right now, but when the US took Baghdad International, there were a number of fully servicable commercial aircraft there. A week later, most if not all (like I say, I can’t remember the details off hand) had been pretty much destroyed by the so called liberators.

Even now, three months after the war officially ended, Iraq’s a tinderbox just waiting to kick off again. Does anyone honestly believe that anything’s safe there?

Thought not.

So surely if these airframes are to be safeguarded for the Iraqi nation (which I firmly believe they should), they need to be removed to a place of safety, ie, out of Iraq.

Not looking for an argument with anyone, I’m sure you’re all adult enough to see that I’m just stating my views, and you’ll either take ’em or leave ’em.

I don’t think any of us or the Armed Forces are going to have any say in the destination of any of the Iraqi aircraft – no doubt there will be some unscrupulous dealer out there who intends to use the confusion at present to export the Fury and other airframes for further sale .

Ok

The answer is easy bring the furies back to uk rebuild one to static and return it to an museum in iraq. And rebuild the other to fly here in uk in iraqi markings which could also be flown in iraq.

Scott C

Since it has been mentioned, I took some pictures of the Twin Pin in Mid April. If anybody wants to see them, send me an email. Better yet, can somebody tell me how to post them here?

It looked to me like most of the damage had been done prior to the invasion. It’s in about as bad shape as the Fury is.

Arthur, I laugh and agree. It is sad.

109E, Graeme C,
Go back to the beginning of this thread.
You will notice that much has been said already, both for and against the welcome retrieval of a long lost and much loved British aeroplane/crass and mindless robbery of a piece of Iraqi property.
To turn up now and declare that you do not care where it came from, and “Anyone agree” is hardly constructive – it has all been said before.
Please join in by all means but don’t just come in with “Oh, and another thing…” and then repeat something that was said 3-4 posts earlier.
Meanwhile I shall now have a rant and almost certainly repeat myself. Excuse me…

109E, as I have said previously – and you obviously missed – why the Fury and not the Twin Pioneer? The Twin Pin is rarer but obviously just doesn’t have the image – and couldn’t be sold off to be a round the poles racer when the rich private enthusiast gets bored with it. I agree that the British military should be devoting their time and resources to other more useful enterprises whilst in Iraq. Knowing how cost conscious the bean counters are, and how little equipment went out due to a chronic lack of shipping space, I imagine that if it was brought back it wouldn’t stay very long in Britain anyway, but be sold off quick to help cover the transport costs. And you know how easy it is to keep a Fury – or Sea Fury – in Britain when the $$$s are waved around.
Graeme C, I am glad you don’t care where this aircraft came from – and I hope I never, ever have to fly anywhere with you because to not be bothered about the provenance of any flying machine would scare the merde out of me. To ignore the history just because you have selfishly decided that the Iraqi people shouldn’t have it is mind numbing. Yes it would be great to see it fly but that is not – or should not be – our decision. Would you tear Amy Johnson’s DH60 Moth ‘Jason’ out of the Science Museum just to see it fly? No – because it is not sexy enough for you. How about the Gloster E28/39? Loads of history there, it shouldn’t be too difficult to restore to flight (like I’d know!), and it is obviously unwanted because it has been left to fester in a dusty old building in London. Don’t worry that it is not yours to make decisions about or yours to sell – let’s find a rich private collector!
Lanc S-Sugar? Fly it away! Fancy anything ‘stored’ in a display hanger at Duxford? Well, it isn’t wanted otherwise they would have restored it to airworthy status!

This Fury was an Iraqi gate guardian.
Look at what happened to all the gate guardians in Britain; the old and valuable ones (eventually) got sold off – what makes you think that if you bide your time then you won’t get the opportunity given to you by the new, reborn, and probably privatised Iraqi Air Defence Force (sponsored by Burger King or Pepsi Cola) as they cash in?

If your rich private enthusiast really must have a Fury then let him have a look through whatever passes for a ‘New & Used Warbird’ sales rag – there are more than enough in America with the added advantage of it not being stolen from another nation. Of course, it might have a bigger engine hanging off the front and the wings might well be clipped, the canopy non standard and possibly a bigger tail to handle all that extra power – but since your collector will get bored with it – like they have so often in the past – it will be all set up for the next owner!

Now, it is your turn to come back with a mind shattering truth about why this particular machine should be returned to Britain – bearing in mind that it is not rare, there being around 28-30 ex Iraqi airframes from the world population of around 60 Sea/Furies. Just don’t use the phrases “I want” or “it must” – unless you have the money to actually buy it yourselves, in which case you are mad.

Can we still be friends even though you are wrong? 😀 😀 😀

Flood.

Let’s have Iraq keep what’s Iraqi. They bought the Fury many moons ago, so it’s theirs. I also doubt that the relatives and loved ones of the killed or wounded British soldiers would like to recieve a letter saying something like

“Dear Ms. Smith,
we’re very sorry your son died in our war with Iraq. Yet, we’re happy to inform you his death was not in vain. The deplorable death of your loved one has secured the posession of an old and rusted piece of flying machinery for our British heritage. Back in the old days, we scrapped all our own aircraft of this type but thanks to your son’s death we can put another one on display.
…”

Personally, i think this is a bit out of proportion.

Alas, i do think the Fury won’t stay in Iraq for too long. What i fear even worse is that this airframe will be given a fake FAA paintjob to make it represent something it never was, is nor will be. That Fury is Iraqi, and should be appreciated like that. Even if you steal it.

Just my humble and insignificant opinion.

Graeme – the machine was a gate guard at an Iraqi Air Force base – it clearly wasn’t rotting in the desert which by the very meaning of the word is a vast expanse of usually desolate
land. The relevance of ‘Black Six’ escapes me – she was clearly brought back to the U.K for evaluation – something which was clearly carried out by the Enemy Aircraft Flight at Collyweston.
At present she is the property of the Iraqi people – what right do we have to take it? Maybe if we were so keen to see an
Iraqi Fury flying we should have petitioned the OFMC to keep
their machine in the 1990’s rather than sell her to South Africa !

100 % behind ya, i think that the aircraft should be flying in the Uk by a collector. If the iraqis wanted the plane so much why did they leave it to rot in the desert?

As a “aircraft fan” i dont care where this aircraft has come from, and the morals behind it. As long as i see it in the air im V 😀 . Look at me109 black 6, she would of never had flown in the Uk if the Australian forces didnt bring her back to the UK in WW2.

Ok what would you prefer? a flying Fury at Duxford, or a complete heap in the desert?

Just going to butt in here! I can see both sides of this deabte. Firstly I dont think its a valuable use of the British Army’s/RAF’s time and resources to bring this aircraft back considering the present situation in Iraq. Although secondly I think that we should get this (rare and beautiful) aircraft back to Britain. Maybe an aircraft resto group or (rich!) private enthusiast should get it back here? Anyone agree?

I really dont want this debate about historic aircraft the stray into one of the rights and wrongs of intervention in Iraq. But I will say this.

As I see it the ordinary Iraqi has been liberated from a tyranical regime and now has the opportunity to use two of the most powerful nations on the planet to rebuild their once proud country into what they (the Iraqis) want it to be. They appear not to want to take up that opportunity. I feel this not only fr4om Press reports but from the views of people I have met who have recently returned from Iraq. I really hope that I am wrong.

As for the Furies, well it really doesent matter and in the (sober) light of day I really dont care where they are as long as they are restored and appreciated. I just think there is more chance of that happening if they were somewhere other than Iraq.

As for payment, I really dont think that is an issue, there are massive Oil reserves in Iraq that, when exploited for the benefit of the Iraqi people as all of the main parties in the conflict have said WILL happen will make any payment for an old wrecked plane pale into insignificance.

I really wish I hadnt replied to this thread now, repeat after me I will not post when drunk, I will not post when drunk……..

in the past a/c have been “exported” out of irak
example:

hawker aircraft ltd
kingston-on-thames,england
FB11
S/N N41H65G803 SEA FURY

was among a bunch of ex-iraki sea fury a/c sold to an american “a/c hunter”
connected with the confederated air force harlingen,texas (now moved to midland,tx)

restored by
tom’s aeroplane service live oak,fla

owned and flown by
tom crevasse & john williams

registered as
N19SF

painted in the colours
NAVY 121

a/c could not pull up again after a mock dogfight with an ME108 at harlingen,tx
and was complety destroyed on impact.

====>

so it is either:

a)let the irakis in charge resulting in the a/c cannibalised for
parts to be sold on the black market and the restants rotting
away in sun,wind and vandals action.

or

b)get them out of irak a.s.a.p.

Man on the Fence,

saying that we paid for the furies ( i realise you meant the statement in a broader sense than this ) with 50 lives is perhaps missing the point.

The point of our presence in Iraq was to sort out the WoMD, that was our mandate for been there. The Americans reason was similar but they also said they were going in there topple an evil regime given them a wider mandate. The servicemen who paid with there lives knew what they were doing when they went out there. I’d imagine that these sevricemen would be much prouder knowing that their sacrifice had resulted in peace in that part of the Middle East rather than serving as an excuse for us basically STEALING Iraqi property.

“””””Do I think the Iraqi’s care about them – No they care about nothing but themselves”””””””

be careful not to tar a whole nation with the same brush. You say they don’t seem to appreciate there freedom. Again, a rather wide uniformed generalisation i would say. Many of the people of Iraq will no doubt have grave fears for the future of there country and it will take a while for trust to be garnered by the Western liberators.

best regards steve.

Re: Rant on

Originally posted by Manonthefence
“I’m sorry mate but this ceased to be a debate that I will take seriously when you used that emotive claptrap “not in my name” ”

MOTF: It’s possible to debate while being emotional – we’re not robots! Just because the phrase has been use by anti-war objectors etc does not make it out of bounds for everyone else. I would usually support the restoration of old aircraft – but not this way (if it will be nicked).

“Do I think the Iraqi’s should be paid for them – No we have paid with 50 of our young men’s lives (this year)”

Iraq should not be paid for them – because they are not ours to keep.

“Do I think the Iraqi’s care about them – No they care about nothing but themselves”

I think you’re wrong – Arab people are amoung the most hospitable in the world to foreigners.

“At the end of the day, these aircraft are a very unimportant piece if Iraqi history, the birthplace of civilization has lost more important things than a few planes. To us however they are more “important” we would appreciate them more.”

Interesting – so the only Iraqi heritage worth saving is the ancient stuff is it? I disagree. The story of British aircraft exported worldwide is an interesting one – these Furies being a good example.

“They don’t seem to be able to appreciate their freedom and all that entails and seem to want everything handed to them on a plate.”

Straying of topic here, but as you mention it, it’s not the easiest thing in the world being in a leaderless nation, just having emerged from 25 years of dictatorship. Wanting the basics for survival is reasonable – it’s up to the West to help them until they can manage alone (a long task).

Flood

You didn’t pay, I didn’t pay; they did

Two drinking friends who are currenly walking with some difficulty and one very close school friend who isnt coming back. I haven’t paid personally, but I have been supporting people who have. What have you done?

I had spent days resisting the temptation to post however the bait of “not in my name” finally was too much. (I find that saying offensive). In someways I wish I hadnt, however I will exercise the right to free speech that was wone for me at such a dear cost by my forefathers, even if sometimes I **** it up.

That said in the overall scheme of things these aircraft dont matter much to a nation that really needs to start helping to rebuild itself and stop blaming others for conditions that have existed for years and not just a few months.

You have taken my posting about the situation in Iraq and replied with a diatribe about the whole Middle East Problem. I am quite happy to chew the cud with you about this, but not here. The presence of a couple of old wrecked aircraft at an old wrecked airfield will not have any impact of the outcome of that whatsoever.

I’m not an American. but I would be proud to be one should that ever happen. The Nation has its faults but is the second best on the Planet (after Great Britain of course)

I’m not going to fall out with anyone over this, too many people have done that already.

😡 Oh. 😡 My. 😡 God.

(Click) RANT ON (assumes condescending tone of voice)

Manonthefence, let us go through your points, one by one:-

😡 You want it brought back.
Fine. That is your opinion. My opinion is that you are wrong, very wrong, but there you go. Can’t all think alike, it would make for a very boring world.

😡 We have paid with 50 soldiers lives?:mad: 😡 😡
We paid?:mad: So what was your share of those men’s deaths?:mad: You didn’t pay, I didn’t pay; they did, and maybe the price was way too much – certainly was for them.:mad: I would not pay for a Fury – any Fury – with one mans life. Who are you to decide that any one of those men were worth trading for a knackered old aeroplane wreck? And if that is the case – and your exchange rate is 50 men = 1 old wreck – then what else are you going to take as the price grows? More importantly what are the Americans going to take in payment? (And remember, they will have more call on the Fury since they have more of them! They have lost more men so they have first pick!) The Fury isn’t priceless – there are dozens in America, some Sea Furies with a proper British history too, and there is no way you are going to have any luck convincing them to return their beloved machines – but even now there are still quite a few priceless but ancient artefacts left in Baghdads museums so lets take those! Still not enough? Hell, sod the Iraqis! Lets take that power station; we could do with a few at home and so could the Yanks! And mustn’t forget the oil.

😡 The Iraqis don’t care about the Fury.
I can understand that. I can also understand that less than a tenth of 1% of the British population goes to the biggest airshow in Britain. Therefore I deduce that the British public don’t care for old aeroplanes either. But then we haven’t just had a socking great conflict – no matter how one-sided it was – right on our doorstep so what is our excuse? Maybe we have become too luxury orientated whilst they have had to concentrate on the essentials – and what does that tell you about us?

😡 Maybe you don’t give a toss.
Maybe you speed on motorways and in towns, drop litter in the street, act in a generally obnoxious manner to someone at some point every day. Everyone does – me included – and usually we don’t mean to but we do. We don’t give a toss. But when nations start not giving a toss, start disregarding the smaller, less able countries and deciding that we have more right to something of theirs – what ever it is – then that is what starts wars, builds hatred, breeds suicide bombers, flies airliners into things, etc. An awful lot of Saudis didn’t like the way the Americans ignored their way of life (drinking, ogling women, acting in an uncouth manner, exposing more skin than acceptable in public, wearing shoes in sacred places, maybe even eating pork) whilst defending the Iraqi border for the last 12 years. Ask bin Laden about that, if you can, since he is regarded by more and more Saudis as giving a toss. I predict there will probably be nasty things happening in Saudi Arabia sometime soon. Witness Israel and the way the Palestinian man in the street feels he has nothing to lose by becoming a walking bomb on a bus or in a plaza. They give a toss. You? As you said, you don’t give a toss.

😡 UNIMPORTANT?
Oh yes, and Furies are VERY important to us. We have loads and loads of history of flying ‘Baghdad’ Furies is action all over the world. How silly of me to forget! Good grief! Look at it with your brain – I love the Sea Fury (notice the S.E.A. bit? Good.) but apart from being a tiny foot note in Korea, a wonderful demonstration of naval history with the FAA Historic Flight until it crashed, and something that Yanks can mutilate to fly around poles in the desert at great speed, the Fury is just another aeroplane. If the Fury was so important to us then why did we (figuratively speaking) ignore all those that passed through our hands and sell them to Americans? Who protested about our national ‘treasures’ being exported then? Just as well the Americans don’t want all those Mustangs we have here back because they could care for them much better than we can!

😡 Appreciation of freedom.
That, my friend, is down to a lack of patience. Probably. Everything is always done now in America. You see it on TV, in the films. Burger and fries, now. Nobody ever waits for anything coz it is there, instantly. So when we go and destroy their power cables to shut down air defence radars you would think that we would be able to restore that no problem. End of the week? Yeah! Their culture is not that far removed from ours – if you lived in north east America the other week you would have initially feared that it was a terrorist attack, then really laid into the power companies for not getting their act together quick enough. Why should the Iraqis be any different? Because they are lousy no good Arabs who should be able to live on a tin of dog food a day? Have a look at the bloggers from Iraq. They are concerned with much more than water supplies and where their next tin of dog food is coming from.

Personally I would be extremely happy if all those who want the Fury so badly were to go out there and remove all the cluster bombs that are still actively killing kids, and then take the Fury away in payment for that. That is almost the only way the cluster bombs will be removed – the military don’t want to do it; its killing their men too – and, as I said earlier, that aeroplane is not worth one life. British, American, or Iraqi. But it will never happen.

I don’t see you standing up and demanding the Twin Pioneer be returned either. What’s wrong with the Twin Pin? Not sexy enough? Not fast enough? Couldn’t sell it to the Yanks for lots of money? Or maybe it has less appeal to the Iraqis and so has less appeal to you too? It is certainly a lot rarer than the Fury.

😡 Manonthefence, I am sure you are a very nice guy who is kind to animals and buys his mum flowers when ever he can, but your argument sets the art of diplomacy back big time.
Are you sure you aren’t American?:D 😀 😀

RANT OFF (click)

Let’s just agree to part as friends.;)

Flood.